Mig Welder Decision Time

[slugbug]

I've been  looking into buying a MIG welder for a while now and I think I've narrowed it down to the Clarke 130EN.
MyToolDepot seems to have the best price.  My first choice would've been  a Hobart Handler MIG, but have only seen US sellers selling it on ebay. I'm sure customs and taxes would kill any deal on a US purchase though.
If I don't start working on my '55 oval soon, I'll never get it on the road.

[HeliMike]

Mytooldepot are a bunch of great guys and very good customers of ours.
Just keep in mind that the picture you have there is of a complete kit. If you're buying a 130en it will not come with the gas conversion kit, the pictured cart and a few other accessories. It's basically just a welder.
If you want the \"plug-and-play\" kit in a 110V, you want a part # WE6000.
Happy welding!
 

[slugbug]

So  part # WE6000 comes with the gas conversion kit? The description says it includes a Mig Conversion Kit, but I wasn't sure that was the same thing.

Edit: I see it does

[Tom H.]

having recently upgraded from a 110v to a 240v, go 240!

I highly recommend a Miller 175.

[surgerypending]

Get a Miller 175...KMS usually has a sale where it comes with a welding cart..and an auto tint helmet for $899. U can weld panels to chasseys with it.

[slugbug]

The problem is our fuse box only has a 100 amp entrance, and it's pretty full now. No space for another 220v circuit, so it's a 120v Mig or nothing.
I really can't afford to spend a wad of cash to upgrade our homes wiring.

[blarneyman]

The little bit of welding that I've done on cars has been with a \"Miller 135\". It's 120v and does a nice job on sheetmetal.

[Chad M]

I haven't regretted for one moment owning my Hobart 135.  They replaced this model with a 140, but it's still roughly the same price.  If you hit a sale you can sometimes get the Miller 135/140 for the same price as the Hobart.  The Miller looks better but it's all the same stuff.  My Hobart has Miller parts all through it.  From what I've read, don't waste your time with brands like Clarke or Deca etc.  GB always said cry once.

[slammedbus]

having recently upgraded from a 110v to a 240v, go 240!

I highly recommend a Miller 175.

I agree, that is the one the high school has and also the one that I bought. GREAT WELDER!!!

[silas]

Get a Miller 175...KMS usually has a sale where it comes with a welding cart..and an auto tint helmet for $899. U can weld panels to chasseys with it.

i'm not sure i understand what you mean here. do you mean weld pans to chassis? because you can do that with a 135. also, i'm pretty sure that there are no kms tool stores in eastern canada, so shipping would be a bitch.

imho, if a 240v welder is out of the question, the miller millermatic 135 is the best 120v welder on the market. wire speed and voltage control is infinate, so you can fine tune the settings rather than clicking the dial to hot, hotter, hottest, damn. the internal wire feed spool is aluminum, no cheap plastic s#!t here. it will also automatically shut down if the fan is blocked or the duty cycle is exceeded. 3 year warranty on a quality, well built machine.

i've had one for 1 1/2 years and i love it. no problems with anything so far. i have a buddy who uses one daily and has had his for a long time and it still keeps up.

i havent heard much about clarke welders, so i cant really comment on the machines. usually when i hear people talking about welders they're talking about the big 3. lincoln (good), hobart (better), miller (best). buy the best welder you can afford. you'll thank yourself later.

good luck and have fun. you're going to love welding.    

[surgerypending]

What i meant was that the miller 175 can weld anything as thin as a body panel or  as thick as a chassey or frame. I have one and it's a great machine.

[silas]

What i meant was that the miller 175 can weld anything as thin as a body panel or  as thick as a chassey or frame. I have one and it's a great machine.

gotcha.  

but, if we're talking metal thickness, the 135 is good up to 3/16\" and the 175 is good up to 1/4\". not much of a difference.

the difference is the rated output and longer duty cycle, aswell as the output power range.

i'm not trying to argue with you, i'm positive that your machine kicks a whole lot of ass. i'm just curious about the noticeable differences between the 2. say, from a weekend welder/uses machine 2-4 days a week for only a couple hours a day standpoint. is there really a noticeable difference?

i imagine if it was for everyday use and you needed it daily for your business, it would matter. but if not, 135 or 175?

tom, or anyone else that has used both 135 and 175 care to elaborate on any other noticeable differences.

 

[Mowser]

I'll kick in my 2 cents here.  You said your panel is full and all you can put in is a 120 VAC welder.  Despite what you think I'd be willing to bet that your panel is more than capable of running the extra 240 load.  It's a common misconception that 100 Amps means exactly that ..... 100 A total.  That isn't the case.  A house has very few loads that are considered continuous.  Much like a welder.  What does your house have on it ?  Hot tub, Range, Dryer, A/C, Hot water tank.....?  Depending on the panel there are multiple solutions to your problem.  All of which are easy and relatively inexpensive.  What type of panel do you have?  Oh yeah... I'm a journeyman electrician...  I know what for I speak ^_^  

[blarneyman]

Your most likely right Sparky (I mean Mowser), I've got the same title but down in the states. Just don't let me find you working down here! I would have to write you a citation for being unlicensed in Washington    I'm working for the state now as an inspector and compliance officer.

[Bruce]

Mowser is right, 100A is plenty of room to run a 240V welder in the garage.  Don't let that dissuade you from buying the bigger machine.

I bought my welder back in the 80s when the portable pocket MIGs first appeared.  It is called the Miller Cricket.  

There's something you should know about welders today.  All the amperage ratings are fantasy, misleading numbers.  There is no way any 120V welder can pump out 130A. It is complete marketing BS.  Notice how those model numbers don't actually have an A after them (for amps)?

Here's the math:  Your 120V cct has a 15A breaker.  For continuous use, 120V x 15A = 1800W.  The voltage across the arc will be around 20VDC at it's hottest setting.  1800W / 20V = 90A

This is the same fraudlent advertising that happened to air compressors from the 80s to today.  It used to be that the biggest compressor running on 120V was a 2hp.  Now you can buy 5hp compressors that run on 120V.  Complete CRAP.

Also, don't believe the sales hype when they say you can weld metal of a certain thickness.  Mine claimed it could weld 3/16\" steel.  Not only can it not weld 3/16\", it can't even properly weld 1/8\".  When I bought mine, I thought it would be fine since there's no heavy guage frame on a VW, only thin sheet metal.  I had no idea I would be cutting and welding on trailing arms.  My welder isn't enough for doing TAs, so that's why I paid a friend of mine to do the final welding with his bigger machine.

I have never met anyone with a 120V MIG welder that didn't wish he'd bought a 220V welder.  You can do what we all did, buy the small one first, then buy a bigger one later.  Or just buy the bigger one now.

[Tom H.]

I run a 20 amp breaker on my 220 plug in the garage, as its used mainly for my air compressor. Only popped it welding in the 3/8\" Berg bus box mounts  B) . If you have an electric dryer or stove, that is your source for power.

[slugbug]

Well another problem is I don't have a garage, so where would I plug a 220v welder :unsure:
A neighbor lets me store my car in her garage, but does not want me working on it there. I had plans to build a garage this summer, but our basement has developed some bad leaks, so there goes the money. The fun never ends. :wacko:
A 120v welder will be just fine for my needs.

[Bruce]

My old garage had only a 120V cct, so I ran a big extension cord from the house for 240V from the dryer's outlet.

[GRK]

I'll kick in my 2 cents here.  You said your panel is full and all you can put in is a 120 VAC welder.  Despite what you think I'd be willing to bet that your panel is more than capable of running the extra 240 load.  It's a common misconception that 100 Amps means exactly that ..... 100 A total.  That isn't the case.  A house has very few loads that are considered continuous.  Much like a welder.  What does your house have on it ?  Hot tub, Range, Dryer, A/C, Hot water tank.....?  Depending on the panel there are multiple solutions to your problem.  All of which are easy and relatively inexpensive.  What type of panel do you have?  Oh yeah... I'm a journeyman electrician...  I know what for I speak ^_^

Transfer a break or 2 and Put in a sub panel!

[HeliMike]

Any mod's/restoration work you need to to with a VW you can do EASILY  with a 110V unit no matter what anybody here says. I'm not trashin' anybody here but if you know what you're doing it can be done easily. I've seen it done first-hand - period.
You don't need a 240V/220V welder to weld a VW plain and simple. If you're doing fab-work on heavy steel of any kind then yeah I could agree with a 220V model. I did my IRS conversion with a 110V model, .023 wire, heat cranked and wire-speed set properly,  and gas and it kicked ass.
My bro's got a 220V and a 110V  model Clarke welder (which are made in Italy I might add) and it will WAY do more than you need it to. You just have to know what you're doing. He said the 110V will do almost anything you need it to. The 220V is a spool-gun and he said the 2lb rolls are a little tight for the spool guns and the motor has a hard time feeding such a tight roll.

Like I said - I'm not trashin' anybody. A 220V Miller would be nice in a perfect world, but the simple fact of life is not everyone can afford a 220V Miller. The 110V Clarke will be more than fine and if you're worried about the shipping cost PM me and I'll take care of it.

You just have to know what you're doing - plain and simple.
And yes a 110V \"130amp\" welder will weld 3/16 plate. I'VE SEEN IT IN PERSON because I've done it.
 

[Bruce]

And yes a 110V "130amp" welder will weld 3/16 plate. I'VE SEEN IT IN PERSON because I've done it.

You're only fooling yourself.  

First there's no way any 120V welder can put out 130A.  See my post above, it is based on Ohm's law.

Second, your weld of 3/16\" plate with a 120V welder will not have proper penetration.  There simply isn't enough amps to do it.  Show that weld to any journeyman welder and he will laugh at it, calling it chickenshit welding.  If it had to stand up to any scrutiny, it would fail.

[silas]

And yes a 110V \"130amp\" welder will weld 3/16 plate. I'VE SEEN IT IN PERSON because I've done it.

You're only fooling yourself.  

First there's no way any 120V welder can put out 130A.  See my post above, it is based on Ohm's law.

here's a stupid question.

is a 15 amp breaker the biggest you can stuff in a 120V circuit? or can you put in a 20 or 30 amp breaker? and if you can, would that potentially increase the watts and allow the machine to produce a greater amp output? i only ask because i dont know.  

after cruising the miller welder website, it says that the rated output is 90A at 18VDC for a millermatic 135. that seems about right doesnt it?

it does say that the output power range is 30 - 135 amps. according to bruce, ohms law, and the breaker in the circuit, 135A does seem unatainable.

does this make any sense or am i just f*@ked?  B)  

[slugbug]

I have mostly 20 and a few 30A fuses in my fusebox. I can't even use 15A on most of the circuits. Old glass screw in fuses...not breakers. :unsure:  

[Mowser]

You're scaring me Slugbug.  I hope your smoke detectors all work and your insurance is payed up.

[slugbug]

Been no problems whatsoever since house was built in '66. The wiring was done by an electrician and verified AOK. The house also has its original oil furnace and oil fired hot water heater..both in great condition. I've added some new circuits and replaced some wiring over the years using high quality materials. Occasionaly we blow a fuse when 2 high power devices are plugged into the same outlet..but nothing out of the ordinary. If fuses didn't blow I'd be worried.
You know the old saying..if it's not broken..don't fix it

I'm getting a Hobart Handler 135 Mig. It's made by Miller I believe.

[Bruce]

after cruising the miller welder website, it says that the rated output is 90A at 18VDC for a millermatic 135. that seems about right doesnt it?
 

That's what I'm talking about.  There's the proof of their fraud.  They all do it.

You can put in a larger cct breaker than 15A.  I had a 20A breaker in my garage.  But that won't change what the welder draws.  The windings will draw a current value proportional to the voltage being applied.  Since the voltage is still going to be 120V when you install the larger breaker, the current drawn by the welder will remain unchanged.  All the bigger breaker gets you is that you can run more stuff when you are welding.

[blarneyman]

You really don't want to put in a larger breaker unless you change the wiring. That's how people burn there houses down. If you have 14 gauge wire on that circuit, all it can \"safely\" handle is 15A. You would have to have 12 gauge wire for 20A.

[silas]

thanks for clearing up the breaker q's, guys. i'm no electrician, yet, so please bare with me.

so i'm still a bit confused. if...

Here's the math:  Your 120V cct has a 15A breaker.  For continuous use, 120V x 15A = 1800W.  The voltage across the arc will be around 20VDC at it's hottest setting.  1800W / 20V = 90A

then why isnt this true?

after cruising the miller welder website, it says that the rated output is 90A at 18VDC for a millermatic 135. that seems about right doesnt it?

if the voltage across the arc is 18VDC and we have 1800W for continuous use, then wouldnt that = 100A?

thanks in advance for putting up with my s#!t.  
 
 

[Mowser]

Okay I'll confuse the issue.  A breaker rated at 15 amps will only hold 12 Amps continuous.  It's the way they are built.  All residential breakers are only rated for 80% of their maximum.  Putting that math to use your 120V circuit running a 15A breaker continuously can only maintian 12 Amps or 1500 Watts.  That is why you see so many little area heaters and hair blowers at 1500W.  Any more would require them to have a heavier circuit to run them.   Now 1500 / 18Volts is approx 83 amps.  To get a true 90Amps the voltage would have to be 16.6.......

True a 14 awg wire can only safely handle 15Amps.  Putting our new information to the test a 20Amp breaker can only REALLY handle 16 amps continuously.  Yes it's only 1 amp over what a #14 wire is good for but it's still OVER.  Continuous use at that current would heat up the wire causing the insulation on the wire to fail and WOOF........  Running ANY wire at it's maximum should be avoided.  Anyone who has had problems giving a car a jump start with undersized cables can attest.  The wires get HOT.  THAT'S BAD.

The safety net put to use in the Electrical Code is actually valid.  Think of it in terms we can all relate to.  Would you run your beloved engine at the full throttle forever?  How about at red line for an extended period of time?  For short bursts it can take it but continuous exposure would cause a melt down.  

That help or confuse it more?

Todd

[silas]

thanks mowser.

i got it all except this...

To get a true 90Amps the voltage would have to be 16.6.......

disregarding WOOFING wires for the moment, how can we get 16.6VDC? turn down the voltage setting on the welder which would create less resistance?