Why Would This Happen To My Motor And Not Others?

[Boost_Retard]

Hey ppl.. as you may know i have been having some oil \"problems\" with my car.. anyhow..i have most of the problems cleared up or at least i think i have the answer to them.

but what i dont get is this... it is kinda obvious that if i am hard on the gas (like drag launch) my motor starves for oil . the pressure goes from 45 PSI to 0 QUICK.

but i have talked to others with the same sump turbo system..and even a few of them use a larger pump then myself..i use a shadek (sp?) 30mm..
and none of these ppl claim that they have ever had a oil starving problem.

What is it that sets my motor apart? is it a problem or not.
Really, anything that can go wrong...WILL go wrong if i have any part of it. i accept this. dont like it..but what can ya do.
Maybe i just drive harder then others..but i hope not..turbo bugs need to get shit kicked everynow and then.

i dunno. looks like drags are out for tommrow though *sigh*

cale

[James Buchan]

On assembly did you really get in there and clean your galley's out? Maybe your blocked somewhere.

[Hansk]

Pick up tube or the extension?  Power failure at your gage or sender ?

[AlanU]

So you go from 45psi to 0.  Now are you using a mechanical gauge??? Or are you using a VDO with electronic sender? Before you jump the gun I would put a mechanical gauge on the engine when its cold and monitor the pressure as it warms up.  If you rev the engine to 2000rpms are you getting aprox 20psi??? 3000 rpms = apox 30 psi??? I'd trust a mechanical gauge for testing purposes.

If your bearings had too much clearance between the journals and bearings you would get very low oil pressure when the oil warms up and some psi when the oil is cold and thicker.

Sh!! kicking has nothing to do with your oil pressure on a relatively fresh engine.  Are you oil plungers moving up and down easily??? I'd check that to see that they are not binding anywhere.

 

[Boost_Retard]

Well, Darren K did the long block up for me..actually he built it twice for me (broke it once) so i dont know the exact specs on the clearance end of the scale..i wish i did..but i dont.

The gauge is a VDO unit with a 2 prong sending unit (one for light and one for gauge)

Here is exactly what happens with the oil problem...

When the car is cold and i fire it up..i have about 20PSI at idle..wich calms down to about 15PSI after a few mins of neutral idle.
If i rev the car while the oil is on the colder side..i build about 10-15PSI for every 1000RPM.

even after the car has warmed up for 5 mins..i will continue to have 15 PSI at idle..i will drive the car for a few blocks and for those few blocks..the oil will stay about 10PSI for every 1000 RPM..
(have not hit anymore then 6 grand on my test drives as i run out of oil if i do)

THEN if i keep it out and running for a few more blocks...my oil pressure slowly drops to about 30 PSI...and as i Build RPM..the PSI stays at about 30..
it never really gets any worse then 25-30 PSI on the gauge while im driving..but it never gets any better if the motor is warm.

What kinda boggles me is that the change from 10-30 synthetic oil over to 25-50 regular oil made almost 0 diff in the oil pressure while the car is driving warm (made for higher cold temp pressure though)

i have gone over all things i can go over beside tearing the motor down. new lines..new filter..new oil checked the 30mm pump..looks new. tried adding more oil..checked all my relife valves and springs..swaped springs for stiffer aftermarket springs (only at the flywheel end of the motor, stock spring was not within spec) kept the stock oil pistions..they move free in the block.

thats about it..i have spent many hours trying what i can to make this work. took the sump off..checked the pick up tube..lots of clearance from the sump plate and a tight fit.

i have a bug pack breather box thats had the foam choped out of it and it has both valve covers and my Alt stand hooked up 2 it..with 1/2\" hose.
the only other thing i could think of is that possibly the feed line for my turbo, wich is T'ed off the block from the stock idiot light port..is some how screwing up the signal to the sending unit wich also shares the same T. but i doubt it.


The oil starving problem is a For sure thing..the other night i took it for a short run..ran awesome..had decent oil PSI as it was still kinda cold. came around the corner and romped on the gas HARD made it up to about 4500RPM and then wham idot light is on..gauge reads zero..but unlike before when this has happend..i did not shut the motor off. i clutched it and the RPMs droped to idle (about 850rpm)  and then after a second or 2 the PSI came rather quickly back up to 15 PSI...so i let out the clutch..gained some RPM..and by this time the oil was warm..so i was not getting any more then 30 PSI again..

WHo knows..im gonna get a mechanical gauge..but man...this sucks
also im gonna install a 3.5quart sump and quite possibly the bug pack super oil pump.

Now all of you (if you actually made it this far) know just as much as i do about whats happening to my motor.

thanx allot for the help guys !
Cale
 

[jim martin]

get a berg style 3.5 litre sump and check your guage ,go too mopac or lordco and get a small pressure guage they are about $50.00 for a auto meter one.
watch the threads i think the are metric and not 1/8 npt at the oil pressure switch port,
something you turbo guys should use is a oil preprime system for starting

[GMB]

Hey Cale. don't you have one of those cb slimline sumps with the filter in it. If so it soundslike you are running out of oil due to a restriction thru the filter in the sump leave the filter out make sure the pick up goes to the sump plate then give it a go.
      If you have a regular sump with screen then try removing the screen and add amagnet to the pick up tube and try that. It really seams like you are running out of oil under acceleration. all other reading seem normal.
    Gary.  

[Boost_Retard]

The CB kit comes with the thin line sump..yes..but no filter..i run no thin line filter or stock screen..just an HP1 full flow.

i know it sounds like im running out of oil.. but i figure if my pump is hauling so much oil that its makin the block dry.how come i cant get any PSI outa all that oil..

but tommrow will tell...mechanical oil gauge..3.5 sump..big pump. if that dont work..beats me man. i WILL figure it out. i just hope i do soon.

thanx for all your help!
Cale

[Scratchy]

i know it sounds like im running out of oil.. but i figure if my pump is hauling so much oil that its makin the block dry.how come i cant get any PSI outa all that oil..


thanx for all your help!
Cale

Flow is the inverse of pressure. With everything else staying the same (at given pump size, speed & oil temp)
to increase pressure, flow must decrease. If flow is increased (due to worn bearings/case) then pressure will
automatically decrease. Think of the thumb on the end of the garden hose analogy....

Your pump is flowing lots of oil at low pressure, and you want it to flow less oil at higher pressure.
Sounds like your losing oil somewhere inside the case, be it bearings, lifters or rockers, who knows.... ?

[Darren]

Well, Darren K did the long block up for me..actually he built it twice for me (broke it once) so i dont know the exact specs on the clearance end of the scale..i wish i did..but i dont.

Bearing clearance was .002\"

Last time Kale the wildman cooked a Rod during one of his 20 minuite burnouts, I figured the extra 1/2 thou would be a good safegurd.
(Or help a little anyways)

Kale did ya put a mechanical guadge on it yet?

[Scratchy]

Here's the latest.

Cale has swapped out the 26mm pump for a 30mm. Still no mechanical Oil Pressure gauge, or Temp. gauge.
Pressure is fine for 10-15 minutes after cold start, then it starts to die. Oil is BLACK after only 30 minutes
of run time. He phoned CB performance and they told him to run only Kendall 40w, as the turbo cooks the oil.

Now this is starting to make sense. He is running 25w-50w oil right now. The turbo is adding extra heat to
the oil system, and is slowly cooking the oil, and most likely removing the viscosity. I told him to get an oil
temp. gage (dipstick) to see what's going on. Even the Synthetic oil he was running when he added the turbo
was BLACK after only a dozen hours of running time.

Next on his list is a 3.5 quart Oil sump and 96 plate cooler. He should get the Oil temp & pressure gauge
installed first though, before making any futher mods, to see what effect they have, if any. My guess is the
Oil Temp must be around 250-260

[Darren]

The reason the oil is going Black is not because of the oil but probably because of the way CB drains the oil back into the sump at it's lowest point, Oil is like wipped up foam after it goes through the turbo and needs a clear opening to drain into, CB buts the drain down low in the sump, When the foamed oil tries to drain into the sump it gets backed up by the oil level and can not drain properly so the foamed up oil backs up into the turbo and burns. The oil needs to drain back to a point above the full oil line on the dipstick.

[CHEECH]

Hey Darren, Cale is going to have a bung welded on to the top side of his new sump and drain it back that way

Shawn

[CHEECH]

Hey this is Cale..just stoped by shawns work to say hi..

I put the new pump in and did some more jazz to the oil system..the overall PSI went up but same thing happens again...takes about 20 mins of running before it starts to happen..the oil psi dropping that is..

im thinking that possibly my oil is burning or getting really hot and that could be makin my oil PSI get funky when the motor gets warm...

im gonna put my 96 plate cooler on and try some kendall 40 W...see what happens.

Cale

[Boost_Retard]

So im back home now..and have re read all the posts..thanx for filling everyone in scratchy.

Pretty much..i think what darren says is right..the way the oil drain back works is not the best thats for sure..but im kinda hooped now..dont have many options unless i install some type of 2 stage oil pump that will pump the oil from the turbo uphill back into the block..i wonder if you could build a stand alone oil system for a turbo...could not be that tough.

hahah next time anyone sees my car..your gonna notice a big ugly oil cooler slapped on in an ugly spot..but the thing is so huge and i have dick for room. and i need as much air flow over it as possible..

i have talked to others and the oil drain back into the sump is an accepted method..although not the best..so im gonna have a bung welded to the top of my 3.5Q sump that i can plug if i change the drain back later.

as much as it hurts me to do this..i will be bringing MORE MONEY to you geoff (Dan sure laid an ass kicking on you that night!Maybe if you strip that nasty paint off it will go a little faster-bitch!) i need a temp sender.

I dunno.. i will figure it out..
Cale
 

[Scratchy]

When the foamed oil tries to drain into the sump it gets backed up by the oil level and can not drain properly so the foamed up oil backs up into the turbo and burns. The oil needs to drain back to a point above the full oil line on the dipstick.

Cale, putting a bung in the top of your new sump will not fix this problem, unless you run the oil level below
the top of the sump (not advisable). The problem is an inherent design flaw in the CB Performance turbo
header. The Turbo is just too low to allow the oil to drain back, un-impeded, to a point above the normal
oil level in the crankcase (see pic). That is why Sharkey drilled and tapped the drain up high in the side of his
case and runs the oil level low on the dipstick, but you can't even do that, as it would be running uphill from the turbo.



Short of adding a short flange to the exhaust outlet on the header to move the turbo up higher,
I'd send the turbo setup back and ask for your money back. This is just piss poor design.

[Scratchy]

Well the oil pressure mystery is solved!

Against all our advice   , Cale put a mechanical gauge in place of the VDO electric sender.
Lo and behold, the oil pressure at idle with the engine hot is 45lbs and goes of the scale (60lbs) when the engine is revved to 3000.

I looked at the stamping on the electric sender and it says 0-10 bar. The gauge is a VDO 0-75lbs gauge.
Houston, we have a problem! Get a 0-150lb VDO gauge and all your \"oil pressure problems\" are solved.
You'll need it now that you're running that honkin' 30mm pump with 50w oil. Cold pressure will be well over
110 psi. Watch out for blown filter gaskets, oil coolers, etc.....

Now you can finally go racing Cale.  

[James Buchan]

OMFG CALE!!!! Put down the pipe and look at simple things first!!!!!