Author Topic: Dizzy Swap  (Read 4249 times)

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CHEECH

Dizzy Swap
« on: March 26, 2008, 06:36:30 AM »
Just wondering if this is a worth while swapand if there is anything I should know before doing it? motor is a 1600dp with single carb.


Thanks Shawn

Offline Hansk

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Dizzy Swap
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2008, 07:55:42 AM »
Stock carb and the vacuum advance is working ? I'd leave it.
Big fat black fastback

CHEECH

Dizzy Swap
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2008, 08:09:50 AM »
It is working Hans but has an off idle hesitation. It was recommended by someone to swap it out for a mechanical one.

Offline BUSDADDY

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Dizzy Swap
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2008, 10:09:59 AM »
A 009 is only going to make that hesitation worse, check that the accelerator pump squirts fuel down the throat when you open the throttle and that the preheat tubes under the manifold get too hot to touch after a few minutes running. Hooking up the warm air to the airfilter helps too.
RUST NEVER SLEEPS

CHEECH

Dizzy Swap
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2008, 10:12:44 AM »
GREAT.... I`ll check that out. Thanks for the tip :rockon:  

Offline jason_hamilton

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Dizzy Swap
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2008, 12:21:02 PM »
I could guess that the carb is an aftermarket Brosol 30/31?
I have that carb in my Ghia and I found it never developed the same amount vacuum as the original Solex, and I had the same hesitation symptom with an SVDA distributor (on a stock 1500 singleport) because it wasn't advancing correctly.
I then installed my old (original) 009 and it's never run better.
I've heard the myths about 009s, and all I can say is I've used this same distributor in two cars since 1989, and I just never have any trouble with it.
I can't vouch for the aftermarket 009s, but I'm sticking with my German one.
Jason Hamilton

Offline egspot

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Dizzy Swap
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2008, 03:37:19 PM »
I experience the same situation and solex 34 and 009.

009 works very nice with dual Kads.

There was an article on a VW mag that detailed a way to alter your carb to work better with the 009.

Here a part of an Article I got from the web:

This is the original GENUINE BOSCH 009 mechanical advance distributor made in Brazil. We have limited supply remaining as Bosch has discontinued production of this item. This distributor has been used for over 30 years in all sorts of stock and Hi-performance applications. This is the easiest distributor solution for any aftermarket carburetor set up, as it does not reply on vacuum for its operation. This distributor has 22 degrees advance built in and reaches complete advance by 2600 RPM, perfect for most 16-2300cc Beetle style engines. Because Bosch has discontinued this produce, we have commissioned a new version to be produced under the KAFER brand new. This new distributor is made to OE German speculations and will replace a worn \"009\" perfectly. See our part number VWC-009-000-009 for more info. and our low introductory price.

For insurance against over-revving your Hi-performance VW engine, you need one of our rev-limiting rotors. Available in two RPM's, they cut out and stop your engine from over-revving - protecting you from extreme engine damage. See part numbers ACC-C10-5830 or BOS-1-234-332-144.
For detailed information about setting the timing on your Bosch 009 distributor - Go to Ken's Buggy Barn to read his article - click: Timing A 009 Distributor

   

 
 
The 009 distributor was introduced, and was a very inexpensive \"replacement\" unit for VW engines, and it was almost a duplicate of the earlier 010 distributor.
These 009 distributors were (and still are) sold by the ton. Early VW engines (pre-71') had no problem, but the smog engines when equipped with the 009/010 distributors had a pronounced and annoying \"flat spot\". A \"flat spot\" is a hesitation just off idle, and can range from being almost unnoticeable to getting broad-sided or rear-ended by approaching cars! (Many 009/34 equipped owners mistake this hesitation for POWER. They don't notice the hesitation, but they DO notice the kick in the back of the seat once the engine catches and it starts accelerating! They mistake this for \"more power\" since there is such a difference between the stumble and actually operating properly.)
The vacuum advance distributors do not have this hesitation since they advance the timing when the throttle is opened as part of their operation. Obviously, the 009/010 is only rpm based, and this vacuum advance doesn't happen. When a 009/010 is combined with the lean SMOG operation of the 34 series carb, the flat spot is the result. Current \"solutions\" are all modifications to the carburetor, which richen up the fuel delivery in various forms, whether it's the idle circuit, the main jet, and/or the accelerator pump circuit.
The error with these \"fixes\" is that they are curing a symptom, not THE PROBLEM. The problem is the lack of additional advance just off idle, not lean operation. The stock distributor/34 carbs didn't have a hesitation!
The SVDA Distributor
Enter the SVDA distributor. A production VW distributor with the 009 advance curve (close enough), and a vacuum advance unit! Believe it or not, there is an additional advantage to the vacuum advance (on engines that have the proper vacuum port; 34 PICT series carbs), and that is the gain of 4 mpg improvement over the 009/010 distributor! Same performance, plus 4 mpg improved mileage, and NO FLAT SPOT.
The drive-ability of the SVDA/34 carb has to be experienced!
30 Series carbs can NOT use the SVDA distributor since the vacuum signal is not correct and won't pull the advance in on the small canned SVDA (you notice the early distributors use larger vacuum cans than later distributors because the vacuum signal is different).
Modified Engines
When the carburetor is changed to something larger than stock, the vacuum signal is lost, so the centrifugal advance units ARE the proper distributor for this application. Now you are lost in a multitude of choices: 009, 010, 050, Mallory, MSD, and Magneto. Which one to use?
What you want is to set your ignition timing about 4 degrees retarded from the point where detonation begins. This setting means the flame front will meet the piston at the top, maximizing cylinder pressure and the time (crank degrees) to push the piston down, making the most power. If you ignite the charge too late, the pressure doesn't build until the crank has rotated some, and you lose precious crank degrees (HORSEPOWER) of work. If the charge is ignited too early, the flame front will hit the piston ON THE WAY UP, and this is a sure-fire way to destroy your engine very quickly.
What is needed is to find the timing point at EVERY RPM point where you are around 4 degrees retarded from detonation under full throttle, since this is the \"ideal\" time for our spark to occur. Obviously, you would leave yourself a safety zone of 3-4 degrees of timing at all points to CYA in case of bad gas, clogged main jet, vacuum leak, abnormally hot engine, etc. The power difference between detonation and 3-4 degrees of retarded timing from this point is negligible, so riding the ragged edge of timing is not worth the risk, IMO. Detonation does NOT have to be audible for it to turn your expensive mechanical marvel into junk in short order.
Finding the Advance Curve
Ideally, you would remove all advance from the distributor, and run a locked timing. You then put the engine on a dyno, and play with timing across the RPM band from idle to redline at full throttle (finding the timing where you are 4 degrees from detonation) and then chart it. Then, you remove the locked timing from the distributor, set your initial timing to match what you found was best at idle. Next, match the distributor's curve to match what you found to be best on the dyno by changing weights and springs in the distributor.
If you have the patience and time to set up this custom curve, and have a heavily modified engine, your patience will be rewarded! Get yourself a Mallory/MSD distributor. You will find they are VERY adjustable. The easiest method to follow is very straightforward. Find the MAX advance point your engine tolerates (between 30-40 degrees BTDC) above 3000 RPM. Now find the place where it responds best at idle. It may be 15-24 degrees BTDC. You may find that this much advance causes starting difficulties when the engine is hot, so be sure to check this out! Ignition before top dead center causes \"negative torque\" and that's what suddenly STOPS your engine from cranking. Avoid this, or use a retard that is activated during cranking.
Now, you know the two critical points in your advance curve. You only need to figure out how FAST you want the advance to come in. I recommend being conservative, and kick the advance in SLOWLY and see how the engine responds. Keep adjusting it (it requires distributor disassembly) so it comes in quicker and quicker, until you detect detonation (problem). Back it to the previous setting, and you are DONE with the centrifugal advance. Now, dial in 10 degrees of vacuum advance, and adjust the advance so the carb(s) will actually activate it and you are done! PHEW!
Frankly, though, finding the advance curve using this method isn't practical for most of us.
The 009/010 is best used for stock rod ratio engines, where you do not want to do all this customer ignition curve work. Let me first say that I'm not a fan of the 050. The 050 has a different advance curve, and it's more suited for short rod engines (like the type 4), or engines with a bigger crank and shorter rod (78 stroke with Porsche length rods, etc).
If you are using an out of the box distributor (009/010/050), you have to set the timing as advanced as you can so it doesn't detonate at full throttle (where you would have a problem with a centrifugal only distributor). Problem with this is, you are setting the WHOLE CURVE BASED ON THE MAX TIMING AT ONE PLACE. This in itself is significant. You are finding the point in the rpm range where you can't advance any more, even though at many (all) other rpm points you are too retarded! THIS is exactly why setting up a custom distributor advance curve is the ideal solution, but not everyone has the time/patience to set it up. Obviously a fully adjustable setup like a programmable Haltech makes this very easy on a dyno since you just tap a few keys and you are on your way, not like changing springs and weights in the distributor every time you have to make a change. However, we have a new distributor that makes this task EASY; inquire for details
 

CHEECH

Dizzy Swap
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2008, 03:50:29 PM »
Thanks for your help guy`s. Im pretty sure the carb is a 30 and stating in that article ( thx Emillio ) the 30 will not work with the SVDA dizzy. Going to try a few things out. Think I have a 34 and an OG 009 kicking around somewhere :rockon:  

Offline jason_hamilton

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Dizzy Swap
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2008, 04:56:35 PM »
So, the gist of the article is:
You can use the SVDA distributor with the 34 PICT carb
OR
You can use the 009 with the 30/31 carb
BUT
You cannot use the SVDA distrubutor with the 30/31 carb (your current setup)
OR
The 009 distributor with the 34-PICT carb (I used do this, and the \"flat spot\" is real.

If you want to see what the 009 feels like with the 30/31, I'm in unit 33 across the street from you. You can take it for a drive any time.
Jason Hamilton

CHEECH

Dizzy Swap
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2008, 06:24:54 AM »
RIGHT ON JASON :rockon:  Im in #3 usually have Butterball parked right out front...... I`ll bring the beer :ph34r:  

Offline egspot

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Dizzy Swap
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2008, 08:19:21 AM »
Quote
RIGHT ON JASON :rockon:  Im in #3 usually have Butterball parked right out front...... I`ll bring the beer :ph34r:
BEER? :ph34r: