Author Topic: Back Firing  (Read 2398 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline shovel80

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 162
  • Karma: 1
Back Firing
« on: October 08, 2007, 08:07:52 AM »
Seams my motor has started to backfire quite a bit and I am loosing power
Have checked timing its good, Plugs seem to be OK, Have Pertronix electric ignition  found black wire inside distributer had rubbed through on the firing magnet re insulated , Installed new rotor and cap, Wires seem fine inspected and tightened all lead ends.
I am going to check the valves when I get home from work tonight that is about the only thing I can think that is left
backfiring out carb is fuel problem ????
backfiring out exhaust is ignition ????
Am I missing some thing
It is a stock 1600 dp 34 pic carb with a baffled stinger on a 68 Baja
Looked kinda neet coming home in the dark last night though
thanks for the help
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.

Offline jason_hamilton

  • Admin
  • Posts: 587
  • Karma: 2
  • 1969 Karmann Ghia 2161cc
Back Firing
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2007, 05:11:00 PM »
Check the intake manifold for leaks, particularly looking for broken/stripped studs at  the head.  
Jason Hamilton

Offline shovel80

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 162
  • Karma: 1
Back Firing
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2007, 08:15:15 PM »
So I got home and waited for the motor to cool down. poped the covers off and found my tdy mark on the bottom pully I then set my 3 valves on the driver side to .005 in ant then did the front one on the pass side to the same. I then rotated the crank pully one full rotation making 360 deg. I then went to chheck the front 3 on the pass side and found the intake on number 1 tight and could not get the feeler guage inserted I then backed the adjustment nut all the way out and could not get it inserted. so I thought wtf so i then put it baack to the aprox place it was on the jamb nut spun the crank 360 again to see  if the first 4 were ok and the problem transfered to the #3 intale valve being super tight
am I doing some thing wrong or have I lost a lobe on my cam ????
Dave
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.

Offline egspot

  • *
  • Posts: 3301
  • Karma: 0
    • http://www.cardomain.com/id/egspot
Back Firing
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2007, 08:38:55 PM »


Is your pulley marked? Is it the correct one for your motor?

Offline Chris

  • Posts: 6118
  • Karma: -125
  • Car.
Back Firing
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2007, 09:35:47 PM »
Procedure:


Locate the car in your work area (garage, etc.) the night before, as the valves must be adjusted with the engine stone cold. You cannot start the engine to move the car before you adjust the valves.


Set the parking brake firmly and block the front wheels. Put the transmission in neutral so that you will be able to turn the engine over by hand.

Note: John Muir (the \"Compleat Idiot\" guy) says not to jack up the car, but he must be a lot smaller than me! I find that it gives me much more working room and makes the job much easier if I raise the rear of the car onto jack stands and remove the rear wheels.


There should be white paint marks on the backside of the crankshaft pulley (the side closest to you) at TDC (there is a notch in the pulley at TDC) and 180o opposite TDC. If they are not there, paint them on with White-out or white paint. Use the straight-edge to locate the point exactly 180o opposite TDC.

Note: Top Dead Center is the point at which the piston is at it's highest point in the cylinder -- compression is the greatest, and firing of the spark plug takes place. The cylinder must be at TDC when you adjust the intake and exhaust valves.

Note: You should also paint white marks at your idle timing point and maximum advance timing point. See the Tune-up Procedure to determine these timing points.


Remove the distributor cap and stow it out of the way. With your fingernail find the thin filed line on the distributor rim; this line marks the firing point to Cylinder #1.

Note: It helps if you have previously placed identification markings on the spark plug wires and on the distributor. Copper wire wrapped around the distributor end of the spark plug wires works well -- one wrap for Cylinder #1, two wraps for Cylinder #2, etc.



Put the 19mm socket or box-end wrench (ring spanner) on the nut that holds the generator pulley and rotate the engine clockwise (forward, the way it runs) until the distributor rotor points to the line on the rim and the timing notch (and paint mark) lines up with the crack in the crankcase. This is Top Dead Center (TDC) for Cylinder #1, where the cylinder fires. Rock the engine back and forth a little bit to make absolutely sure that Cylinder #1 is at Top Dead Center.

Note: If turning the alternator pulley nut does not turn the engine but simply turns the alternator pulley, your drive belt is too loose. You tighten it by remove the pulley nut, the shims stored underneath it, and the rear pulley half, then add some of the shims between the two pulley halves until the tension is within specifications. See our Fan Belt Adjustment Procedure.


Crawl under the right side of the car and locate the valve cover (oval piece of pressed steel held to the engine with a thick, loopy, springy wire).


Before you take the valve cover off, look at its lower edge. It may be cruddy but it should be dry. If it looks like its been leaking, you should install new valve cover gaskets. (Even if only one needs to be replaced, replace both. I always install new gaskets every time I adjust the valves.)


Pry the wire clip off with the large screwdriver -- the clip must be pried off downwards, or you won't be able to remove the cover easily.


Pull the valve cover off the cylinder head. Hopefully the cork gasket will come off with it, all in one piece.

Note: If someone has used some kind of gasket sealer on the valve cover gasket, you are going to have a really fun time with it! More about that later.


Once you have the valve cover off, observe the scene before you. You are peering into your cylinder head. You see the rocker arm assembly, with four rocker arms. There are four pushrods that push on the lower half of the rocker arms, and four valves which the upper half of the rocker arms pushes, opening the valves. When the pushrods stop pushing on the rocker arms, the valve springs close the valves. What pushes on the pushrods is the camshaft, pushing on the solid valve lifters, which push on the pushrods, etc.

Note: The two valves at the very front and very rear of the cylinder head are exhaust valves, and the two inner ones are intake valves.


The two forward-most rocker arms control the intake and exhaust valves for Cylinder #1. With the cylinder at TDC, they should both be closed completely, and in the same position. If one is in a different position than the other, you are not at TDC for that cylinder, so go back over the above steps and find out where you messed up. Wiggle the rocker arms. You should feel a little bit of movement. You are going to be adjusting the clearance between the rocker arm and the valve stem to 0.006\", which is a pretty small clearance. (0.006\" is the proper clearance for both the intake and exhaust valves.)


Adjust the #1 exhaust valve first (it's the one closest to the front on the right). Push the rocker arm in at the bottom to make sure the pushrod is fully seated in it. Slip the 0.006\" feeler gauge into the gap between the valve and the upper end of the rocker arm, underneath the adjusting bolt.

Note: Make sure you slide the blade of the feeler gauge in straight, or you will get a false reading. You should be able to feel it slide through the gap with only a slight bit of friction.

If the 0.006\" blade won't go into the gap, try the 0.004\" blade. If it's hard to push through or grabs, then the valve is tight and requires adjustment. If the 0.006\" blade just falls through the gap with no friction at all, you have a loose valve, and it likewise requires adjustment. If the blade slides through the gap with just a slight resistance (easy sliding), the valve is adjusted correctly.


If the valve is either too tight or too loose, you've come to the fun part. Observe the valve end of the rocker arm. You will see what looks like a screw surrounded with a 13mm nut. The nut is a locknut, so what you do is get your 13mm box-end wrench (ring spanner) on it and loosen the locknut. Be careful--make sure the wrench is firmly on the nut; skinned knuckles abound at this point. I sometimes have to break the lock nut loose with a 13mm socket and ratchet. You only need to loosen the nut a quarter turn or so.

Note: If you

Offline shovel80

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 162
  • Karma: 1
Back Firing
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2007, 10:16:57 PM »
WOW
Thanks Chris and all for the help will look at it again tommorow had to walk away from it tonight
Dave
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.

Offline silas

  • *
  • Posts: 6825
  • Karma: 20
    • Some cool videos...Check them out!!
Back Firing
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2007, 10:51:19 PM »
Quote
So I got home and waited for the motor to cool down. poped the covers off and found my tdy mark on the bottom pully I then set my 3 valves on the driver side to .005 in ant then did the front one on the pass side to the same. I then rotated the crank pully one full rotation making 360 deg. I then went to chheck the front 3 on the pass side and found the intake on number 1 tight and could not get the feeler guage inserted I then backed the adjustment nut all the way out and could not get it inserted. so I thought wtf so i then put it baack to the aprox place it was on the jamb nut spun the crank 360 again to see  if the first 4 were ok and the problem transfered to the #3 intale valve being super tight
am I doing some thing wrong or have I lost a lobe on my cam ????
Dave
sorry man...this makes absolutley no sense to me. if you're adjusting 3 valves at the same time without rotating the crankshaft...that is a big problem. aswell, .005\" is too tight.

copy & paste the directions chris gave onto a ms word document and print them out and take them out to the car and start form the beginning and follow them step for step.

personally, i find it helpfull to remove the valve covers off both sides when doing a valve adjustment. this way you can triple check (the mark on the crankshaft pulley, the rotor pointing to corresponding # wire on the distributor cap....and see below..) to make sure you're adjusting the right one....

...if you're looking to adjust #1 intake & exhaust valves & you've rotated the pulley to tdc and the rotor is pointing to the notch in the distributor body....try moving the crankshaft pulley back & forth slightly(wrench on alternator & turn back & forth), the rockers opposite (#3) should rock. likewise, if you're adjusting #2 valves (you rotate the crankshaft 180 degress counterclockwise, and the rotor would be pointing to the #2 wire on the distributor cap) & move the crankshaft back & forth slightly, the rockers on #4 should both rock.

good luck & let us know how it goes!!!

 

Offline shovel80

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 162
  • Karma: 1
Back Firing
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2007, 10:42:39 AM »
So I got it all adjusted like I was suppose to
Started it up and ran it seemed to be ok then started to run like crap again So I broke down and bought a compression guage 140 on 1, 150 on 2, 140 on 3, 10 on 4  Looks like i gotta go inside  
another new experance is going to happen
Dave
 also this is the site I was refering to for setting the valve clearance 3 on one side and one on the other
http://www.vwtrendsweb.com/tech/0106vwt_va...lve_adjustment/
 
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.

Offline Bruce

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2915
  • Karma: -65458
Back Firing
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2007, 01:02:28 PM »
Dave, before you go inside the engine, run through the valve adjustment procedure.  If one of the valves on #4 is being held open all the time due to impropper setting, your compression test will show what you saw.  It may be a simple valve adjustment problem.

Offline shovel80

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 162
  • Karma: 1
Back Firing
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2007, 05:28:28 PM »
Bruce thanks for the info
I rechecked the valves and it looks like the #4 exhaust is toast  I set 4 to its tdc and tried to get my feeler guage inbetween  rocker and valve and it would not go, loosened the jamb nut and backed the screw out and the valve stayed with it till it hit the rocker, Looks like I am going to learn a few things over the next couple weeks after all
[a href=\"http://photobucket.com\" target=\"_blank\"][img src=\"http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j63/shovel80/hockeytournament.jpg\" border=\"0\" alt=\"Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket\"][/a]
Good thing I still got plates on the bike
Thanks Dave
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.

Offline Bruce

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2915
  • Karma: -65458
Back Firing
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2007, 06:13:19 PM »
Pull the rocker assembly off.  I bet the #4 exhaust valve's retainer will spring out another 10mm.  Thus indicating a \"dropped valve\".

Offline shovel80

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 162
  • Karma: 1
Back Firing
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2007, 07:27:15 PM »
any special order to take the bolts off ?? :wacko:  
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.

Offline Bruce

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2915
  • Karma: -65458
Back Firing
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2007, 08:47:02 PM »
Nope, just dive in.

Offline shovel80

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 162
  • Karma: 1
Back Firing
« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2007, 05:36:34 PM »
So I pulled the rocker off and found #4 exhaust about 1-2 mm higher than intake
[a href=\"http://photobucket.com\" target=\"_blank\"][img src=\"http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j63/shovel80/DSCN8408.jpg\" border=\"0\" alt=\"Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket\"][/a]


and the #3 intake to be about the same




are all 4 valves to be in the same plane or have I streched 2 ??
Thanks Dave
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.

Offline Bruce

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 2915
  • Karma: -65458
Back Firing
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2007, 02:21:31 AM »
Could be the valve seats have pounded into the head.  Do you know if they were even when the engine was built?

Offline Cameron

  • *
  • Posts: 525
  • Karma: 1
Back Firing
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2007, 09:12:04 AM »
Hi Dave,

I don't think that is an accurate way to measure the height of your valves. Those stock retainers are just stamped out of sheet metal, and it's not uncommon for them to sit at different heights. In the second picture, you can see that the keepers are sitting deeper. (Have you been revving this motor up, with stock valve springs? That's a no-no.)

Best to measure the height from the end of the stem. If the retainers were not there, you could put a straight edge across all four stems, and see if there is a difference. Put on some loose lash caps, and see if the stems are all the same height.  


It's an insane world out there... and I'm proud to be part of it!

  

Offline shovel80

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 162
  • Karma: 1
Back Firing
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2007, 12:12:42 PM »
Hi Guys
Don't know what the PO did to the motor and I have a 5400 rpm rev limiter rotor in the car cause I have a 18 yo that has driven it some times

Dave
Never ride faster than your guardian angel can fly.