Author Topic: Dazed & Confused (long Post)  (Read 3710 times)

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Offline BkoolB3

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« on: August 24, 2003, 11:10:19 AM »
Hey everybody! I'm kind of a newbie here to this forum & I was hoping to get some opinions from you. I have owned mostly watercooled VW's but I have owned a 68 Beetle & a 74 914 2.0L. Out of all the VW's I've owned, I miss the Beetle & the 914 the most, especially the 914. So, I'm finally fed up with the watercooled scene, too many opinionated dumbass kids who refuse to admit where their VW roots are. In the past 2 years, my wife has begun to notice that we spend more time checking out the aircooled cars at the VW shows & not much time looking at the watercooled. I suppose one eventually grows up & starts a different childhood.
After an informative visit to Airspeed last week (many thanks to both Jim & Geoff!) I came away with the decision that I am going to start sourcing engine parts in the next 2 months & I hopefully will get somewhat of a start to building my engine. The basic plan is to start building the engine (hopefully with some good suggestions from the people here) & at the same time keep an eye out for a half decent car or shell, preferably a late type 1, early would be nice, but what ever comes up within budget.  
Now comes the complication: last Saturday while passing through downtown Vancouver I came across a place that had a few older Porsche 911 bodies & a couple half decent 914's too.  The one 914 that caught my eye was a faded yellow one, had no engine, but had the Porsche 5 bolt conversion done, front end I find out from the owner was converted to 911 style, complete with 911 brakes front & rear. Now, having owned a 914 before, I'm fairly well versed in what to look for in terms of body damage, rust etc. The battery tray area was fairly clean just little bits of surface rust, the targa top lined up perfectly. Here's the problem: the rear fenders are aftermarket fiberglass flared units (they look good) but I don't think that I'm going to be able to really see what's going in terms of rust underneath. The passenger's door seems to be nestled in with the door jam, a tell tale \"uh oh\" sign. Normally when I see 914's they're pretty much on their way to being \"terminal\". This car seems to be in much better shape than most. The thing is I keep hearing the voice of a bodyman I knew from years ago when I had my 914 \"once the cancer sets in, it's very difficult & very expensive to treat it.\" My friend who was with me has even offered to store the car at his place for a while (underground parking) I wasn't really planning on purchasing a car initially, (much less a 914), just start with an engine build & go from there. As you guys have probably figured out, my old 914 was the favorite out of all the cars I've owned. Maybe I'm being blinded by too much nostalgia, I dunno.  My wife (voice of practicality..damn her :D ) thinks I should stay the course & go with a Beetle, probably much cheaper in the long run.
Sorry for the long post...any ideas? Opinions?

Thanks, Leo
 

Offline Project Decade

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2003, 12:47:13 PM »
What size motor our you planning to build for your car?

Offline BkoolB3

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2003, 12:56:31 PM »
Quote
What size motor our you planning to build for your car?
Well, if I decide going the Beetle route, probably something around the 2.0L mark, again, any suggestions? At what amount of displacement does driveabilty suffer? Or should I even be worried about that, seeing as the car will ultimately be a part time weekend kind of car?

Billyisgr8

Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2003, 01:59:30 PM »
Just remember the older 914's  use a T4 motor and the parts alone for a rebuild cost much more $$$ than a T1.   The only interchangable parts between the 2 motors is the distributor drive gear,  oil pump ( with modifications). 8mm adjusters from the 1.7 T4 rocker arms, and the oil presure sender.

A 1971cc is stock size for a T4 914.

If you are going for the 914, I can help out in the motor dept as to where to get most of the stuff done and what performance mods to do and what is available, as I just went through it about 8 months ago.

Kevin
« Last Edit: August 24, 2003, 02:00:35 PM by Billyisgr8 »

Offline Geoff

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2003, 07:20:40 PM »
I say go T-1, build a big motor and never look back.........................well only when you want to see the H2o car in the rear view mirror that you just beat!

Too many people make the mistake of building a smaller motor first, 1776-1914. Those are great motors but if you want power and a platform to build from when you feel the need for more, start with a 82 stroke.
Spend the money on good heads (thats where the power is) and carbs.

Big........Big..........Big.................Big...

Billyisgr8

Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2003, 07:43:35 PM »
Yah I agree with Geoff.....  



Kevin

Matt

Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2003, 10:41:07 PM »
I just happen to have a 68 bug with newer floorpans, adjustable beam and almost rust free for sale. Only bummer is it got hit in the back needing new fenders, apron and a little pulling between the rear window and right quarter window. This is a perfect start to a street/strip car. I have a new left fender and decklid for it, all for only $500.00.

Matt

Offline BkoolB3

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2003, 11:35:55 PM »
Thanks for the responses guys, I really appreciate it! After much discussion with the boss/wife, it looks like that we're going to go with the original plan, Type 1. Matt, that offer is really tempting! I'd like to get a chance to see the car, but I won't have a chance untill after Labour Day, we're going to be in NY for a wedding all next week. The way I figure it is this way: Doing the 914 as a project would be just like marrying a supermodel & then finding out she has a terminal disease & doesn't have long to live...sorry, bad joke!
You guys with the bigger motors (2.0L plus I'm assuming): How about drivability? Or are we talking strictly trailer queen?

Billyisgr8

Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2003, 12:12:59 AM »
You can put a T4 into a beetle, if you want to only do it 1 time for the next 10 years then a T4 is for you.  Other wise if you want more than 140 hp power from a T1 you'll be taking it apart every 20,000 miles for an align bore and many extra's.

Each motor has it's benefits

T1  - balls to the wall HP ( roudy teenager very peaky allways needs to be tuned up) cheap power
T4  - power from idle to redline  with torque that doesn't stop. ( freshen up the heads at 30,000 and your good for another 30,000)  initial cost is $1500-2000 more,  A T4 is a better motor for the mechanicly challenged, you just close the lid and drive with no worries.

I'm not trying to start a flame war just a couple of facts, and yes I'm sure a few people have got many miles on their T1 motor like Bruce T has.  

A T4 in a beetle which weighs half of a bus makes sence to me, that is why I did it.

Kevin

Offline BkoolB3

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2003, 08:09:14 AM »
Lots o' torque from a T4? Yup, that's one of the things I miss about my 914. What about mounting issues with the T4? Are there a lot of modifications when installing one into a Bug?

Offline Rooodie

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2003, 08:33:26 AM »
Converting to upright cooling is your biggest issue ($$$$) when doing a T4 conversion.

Good choice on going for the T1...I'm just in starting my big engine build this winter...2275!
DGLVK

West Coast Show Down 2004

Caution objects in my mirror appear to be you!

Offline Geoff

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2003, 08:40:09 AM »
Oh Kevin, Your starting a flame war for sure with this one.
A T1 need no more tuning than a T4, The people who need align bores after 20,000 are the ones that have used poor parts or taken short cuts. Your kinda comparing apples to oranges here, If you took a T4 with 100hp and a T1 with 100 hp no prob BUT........You made mention of  comparing a T4 high perf motor to a T1 with 140+ If the two motors are of comparable HP thats fine (i dont know of any T4 motors making 140hp around here) But the motors that we are talking about 2.0+ all out make more like 175-190hp and yes when your at that range it is good to keep a eye on things. I tend to tear my motor down every winter (usualy to add more HP) and take a look at things. In 10 Years of running BIG HP T1 motors i have never had to align bore one of my cases. Lifterbores are another thing;-)

T4's cost too much for too little return, I have seen a few fast reliable T4 (Rob DVKK had a great 2.0 that ran 14.+ and was very reliable) But that will barely keep upto a 16v golf. dollar for dollar T1 will out perform a T4 and there is no need for Fan shoud kits (unless you want the 911 look or running high compression) T4 custom exhaust, etc.

Sorry bout the long post but all the guys i have seen run T4's end up going back to T1 when they want real power :P

Let the flames begin!!!!!

Billyisgr8

Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2003, 02:36:41 PM »
Real power huh...

Reliable and a 150hp T1 do not go in the same sentence.

Each motor has it's place and the T1 fits the bill for most people.  It seems people are more occupied by how fast their car goes in the 1/4 mile and all out hp.


T1 = cheap BIG power

T4 = $$ reliable power but take more $$ and proper combo  to get hp.  Which aircooled motor do the baha 500 guys use, this should give a little insight into reliability. Hold a T4 crank in your hands, and then a T1, it doesn't take a genious to figure out which one is stronger.

but for all who think the T4 is not a power house check out Jake's site 2270cc  = 180hp, 2316cc = 206 hp with racing gas in track form.   the power is in the combo.


He had alot to do with my motor, and with a turbo it will haul.....

One day I will be sporting a 200hp T4 NA, and everything will be 1 off stuff,  I just have to be different and I have to play.

http://www.aircooledtechnology.com/Home_Page.htm

This is not a flame war, I do agree the T1 is where the power is at now but is going to change with new porkie heads to arrive soon, then 250 hp will be the norm,  with the T4 you had better know what your doing or you will be very disapointed if you are only looking for Hp.


Kevin
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 02:54:58 PM by Billyisgr8 »

Matt

Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2003, 03:01:27 PM »
Bkoolb3, check this link for the bug..... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/ind...305191832022377

Matt

Offline Geoff

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2003, 03:26:31 PM »
Hahahaha, speaking from experiance...............I have had a reliable 2275cc since 1996 in my red car that i drove everyday of the summer for 5 years. Hard miles including road trips and track time (sold it and it is now in England still running strong). Most of the orig Berg cruisers have big CC motors that are reliable. Yes the T4 as a stock motor is very strong but when you go big in a t1 a forged 82 is prob a lot stronger. We could argue this all day long and both be correct (in our own minds  JK) But for most people all you need is 130hp T1, it's by far enough to beat most cars.
I like to go with proven parts and combo's i know work, for me it's T1 power. For some t4 is the way to go, all i can say is if your planning on adding a turbo to either then you need to compare them as so.

Your 2.0 with turbo and a t1 2.0 as close as possible in cc's and then we can see what makes more power and cost wise blah blah blah.

 Anyway you go if you plan the project with a goal in mind and stick to it you will have a great combo. If you want to haul your camping equipment in a vehicle shaped like a bread box go T4 hahahaha.
Otherwise for practicality and cost per HP go T1.

That is my .02$..........for now.
 

Billyisgr8

Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2003, 04:19:12 PM »
Yea for practicality sake and cost go T1,

As for Turbo 1971cc T4 vs turbo 1915cc  T1,  Rate the motor's at the same boost  with the same mods and same flowing heads, I'll pick a T4 up to 12 pounds boost.... after that a T1 is better at keeping the heads on and flowing more out the exhaust.

Some people really like to push the envelope though for outright race vehicles

http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic.ph...highlight=turbo

So the verdict is BUY a T1

Kevin
« Last Edit: August 25, 2003, 04:27:43 PM by Billyisgr8 »

Offline red snapper

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #16 on: August 26, 2003, 07:00:59 AM »
Havnt you learned your lesson yet Kev? :P  

Billyisgr8

Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #17 on: August 26, 2003, 08:44:32 AM »
Quote
Havnt you learned your lesson yet Kev? :P
What ????????????? :huh:

pulling a 15.9 shifting at 5500 with only a 1971cc in a 2050 pound car with a T4 motor that is set up for a turbo ( less than stock duration cam) what lesson is there to learn,


my motor is still running. :P

Kevin

Offline red snapper

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2003, 10:16:50 AM »
OOH Ouch! I thought it was a 16.9 in the quarter. As far as your motor is still running I will come back next year with more mods and a  faster car. Thats still a touchy subject for me :wub: .

Offline James Buchan

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2003, 10:49:55 AM »
Hey lets not talk about any of that ok :)

Offline 66split

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2003, 03:05:12 PM »
dam Geoff...watch the \"bread box\" and campin gear comments man...you may hurt someones feelings... :(  
naming a car is gay...really gay.

Offline Geoff

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2003, 03:56:16 PM »
66split, The reason i said that was because i'm building one :P  

Offline BkoolB3

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2003, 09:59:22 PM »
Wow, thanks for the info guys, it's a lot more than I'm used to getting, LOL (I'm a recovering watercooler remember?) By the sounds of things as well as having had a 5 hour discussion on the plane with my wife about pros & cons regarding our little project we're going to build a big type 1, at least some thing in the 1975 range, I'm working on convincing her to let me go nuts with a 2275, but I'm still getting a lot eye rolling... I'm on vacation in Plattsburgh NY ( 45 mins south of Montreal) & I'd better get off before she catches me on this lap top (it's my niece's) LOL. Again thanks bruddahs & keep the discussion going, I'm learning lots!
Leo

BTW-thanks for the link Matt, I'll get a hold of you when I get back!

Matt

Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #23 on: September 01, 2003, 10:47:40 PM »
Just so you know,  the bug is gone.

Matt

Offline JSimmons

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2003, 12:21:43 PM »
Aloha Leo,

Just thought I might chime in here.

I recently had a 2110cc engine built for my '67 Bug (now departed).  I decided to go with a Type I because of the immense amount of flexibility you have with the motor.  Compared to the Type IV, at least for now, someone with a limited cashflow each month would probably be better off going for a Type I.  That's what made my decision (I was a student when I was doing part of the build).  If you have a good chunk of expendable cash to shell out, go for a Type IV.  I guess I'm more of a \"middle-of-the-road\" person when it comes to the Type I vs. Type IV debate.  I can see the upside and downside of each...its all dependent on what you want to do with the car and how much $$ you've got.  Hence the cliche: speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

As for drivability...a lot of this depends on what type of camshaft and compression ratio (uh oh...another touchy subject) you're going to run, and what kind of transmission you're using.  You said you plan on the car being a weekend cruiser type, so I'd go balls-to-the-wall with a 2110cc or 2275cc (90.5's or 94's is another debate), hike up that compression ratio, get a cam profile that'll scare the H20 boys back to Kindergarten with its idle, spend a good amount of $$ on awesome heads and let 'er rip.   :rockon:   Of course...this probably wouldn't be a freeway cruiser.

Once you figure out which way you want to go, there are tons of little details for each aspect of the engine to which you must pay attention.  The amount of detail and resolve to do it right is what makes or breaks an engine.  If you cut corners and order lots of parts from those colorful 10-page ads in the VW magazines, you'll have a really heavy paperweight in no-time.  It might take longer and seem outrageously expensive to do it the right way...but hey...whether the car is full of top-quality parts or junk, you're never going to recover the $$ you invest into it.  So, think of it as spending money on your own entertainment.  

Do you want to watch the basketball game from the nosebleeds or from courtside?  Either way you get to see the game, but which one will bring greater enjoyment.  Oh wait...I forgot...I'm talking to Canadians...not basketball...hockey.  What's more entertaining: trying to watch that damn puck from the nosebleeds or being at the glass when some schmuck gets body-checked up against the wall and you see him lose his dentalwork?

Oh yeah...get good brakes.  Disc brakes.

aloha,
Joel
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.  ~Benjamin Franklin

Offline Shane

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #25 on: September 03, 2003, 03:30:09 PM »
I dont know if you remember my car at Last years Drags... It was a 65 white Beetle, Pretty rough car. It had a 1776 w/dual Kadrons..... all I did was support the Tranny and my final run of the night was a 15.8
 :rockon: By the way I left everything in my car including the spare tire............T1 rules
FTG Canada
Brown Sugar
2014  8.97 @ 157mph

Offline BkoolB3

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2003, 12:26:21 AM »
Well folks, I'm back from our east coast vacation. Montreal drivers....what can I say??  :blink:  They should have signs on their freeway on ramps that say \"Accelerate to attack speed\" :blink:  
Matt, thanks anyway for the tip on your car congrats on selling it. Here's another question for you guys: Has anyone had any exprerience  with dual plug heads??  I know that they're available for type 4's, but  has it been done with type 1's??

Offline Geoff

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2003, 08:35:19 AM »
They are available for T1 engines but unless your flying a airplane with a T1 engine dont bother. A single plug T1 head is the only way to go.

Offline James Buchan

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #28 on: September 04, 2003, 09:42:39 AM »
044's are great heads, either cnc for outta the box flow or hand ported for a more specific application.

Offline JSimmons

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Dazed & Confused (long Post)
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2003, 04:01:08 AM »
Aloha,

You should definitely go the extra mile for whatever heads you get.  I had an excellent set of original German heads welded and customized, then ported and polished and all the other gizmos.  Pretty darn expensive when you consider how much some of the other parts cost, but the heads are one of those components that will make-or-break your engines performance for sure.

~Joel
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.  ~Benjamin Franklin