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Offline 1969deluxebus

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« Reply #30 on: July 23, 2004, 01:02:20 PM »
i  concur (agree) with Geoff
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Offline Shane

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« Reply #31 on: July 23, 2004, 01:02:35 PM »
hear hear
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Offline Cameron

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« Reply #32 on: July 23, 2004, 01:17:44 PM »
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I say sink all the ferrys and build a bridge on top of them and call it done.....Just make sure it's a 4 lane bridge each way not 2 like the trans Canada.
Think about this. The fast ferries cost about $500 millon to build. But that money was borrowed, taken in the form of loans. By the time that money is paid back to the banks, the fast ferries will have cost more than a billion dollars, with interest. At the time the fast ferries construction started, the government of the day figured a bridge from the mainland to the island, would cost about a billion dollars. But they built the ferries, because a bridge was too expensive.  


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Offline silas

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« Reply #33 on: July 23, 2004, 01:23:26 PM »
i'm all for creating jobs for residents of bc aswell as boosting the economy. dont get me wrong. if it can be done, do it.

however, camerons post raises some important and interesting points. one of which is to be successfull you have to make smart business minded desicions. and choosing to build locally, just because it's local, is not a good enough reason. if the local company can make a competitive bid and stay in the race, then all the power to them. i'm not a contracter, but isnt that pretty much the idea? price job, state your bid, out-bid other contracters, get job?

and even though the bcfc is an independent company, we will still be affected by the cost of the project. a more expensive project will result in higher fares, expensive parking, higher priced onboard luxuries, etc.

i'm all for the bridge idea. i wonder why no one has come forward with the proposal to build one? or have they?  

Offline 66split

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« Reply #34 on: July 23, 2004, 01:26:00 PM »
nice research cameron. I am a proponent of hearing \"both\" sides of the arguement before making a decision, unlike my government..  :)
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Offline hellgti

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« Reply #35 on: July 23, 2004, 01:30:31 PM »
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Quote
Why should a FREE enterprise company be FORCED to build ships in a province where cost over runs reign supreme? Don't BLAME BC Ferry Systems for sending your money overseas.

If that's the case then the Cruise ship companies would never make any money because they'd be FORCED to build ships in whatever country the company is based out of. That, is a load of BS. Since BC workers HAD to be trained how to weld aluminum, would you really TRUST workers that had built 3 ships, versus the ones who have built a few hundred? I'd go with the ones with a better and a bit more well padded portfolio if I was to spend millions.

That is the stupidist point I have ever heard! :angry:  Not one word of truth....
not to mention its a direct cut n' paste from this forum

http://www.vwdov.ca/forum/showthread.php?t...?threadid=48609

Offline silas

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« Reply #36 on: July 23, 2004, 01:39:43 PM »
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in the past, BC's industries have been mainly centered around natural resources.  thats not there anymore.  would it not make sense to create skilled jobs for british columbians?
i'm not sure i get you here.

the province is still making some money off of wood and fish. just not as much as it used to.

i dont think winning a contract to build 2-3 ferries is all of a sudden going to create this huge economic boom and turn the province into ship building heaven. the ferries will be built and jobs will be created, and then the ferries will be completed and the jobs will be over.

 

Offline hellgti

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« Reply #37 on: July 23, 2004, 02:03:33 PM »
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i'm not sure i get you here.

the province is still making some money off of wood and fish. just not as much as it used to.

i dont think winning a contract to build 2-3 ferries is all of a sudden going to create this huge economic boom and turn the province into ship building heaven. the ferries will be built and jobs will be created, and then the ferries will be completed and the jobs will be over.
dude, whats so hard to understand?  the people who were working forestry or mining in BC have left for alberta, so has their money.  building ships, housing construction, the olympic bid, all that are keeping money in this province.  I don't remember saying BC was going to turn into a ship building heaven.  but it's not entirely unthinkable that BC could become a contender after it has a few ferries under it's belt.  it's all about opportunity.

Offline Mike Scott

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« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2004, 02:11:29 PM »
The fixed link between Vancouver and Vancouver Island was estimated at 5 billion in the mid 1990's. It

Offline silas

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« Reply #39 on: July 23, 2004, 02:32:44 PM »
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building ships, housing construction, the olympic bid, all that are keeping money in this province. but it's not entirely unthinkable that BC could become a contender after it has a few ferries under it's belt.  it's all about opportunity.
whoa, put down the pipe.

1 out of 3 aint bad. if you think that the olympics and building ships are keeping money in this province, you are sorely mistaken. when do you ever hear anything about the ship building industry making the province tons of cash? never. i'm sure they do well and have created alot of jobs, but are they making the province a ton of money? no.

and dont get started on the olympics. that is going to be such a money pit, it's not even funny. can you name one country/city that has hosted the olympics that has come out ahead of the game? no? because the olympics has always been one of the greatest ways to spend a ton of cash and get nothing back. and dont give me the whole \"it'll put bc on the map\" story.

bc is allready on the map. bc is known for it's natural beauty and outdoor adventure. the tourism industry is one of the strongest. cruise ships, huge. skiing in whistler, huge. surfing in tofino, huge. hiking, mountain biking camping, all huge. golf in the interior, huge. kayaking, fishing charters, boating, all huge. the beaches, the mountains and the weather in the summer. all of this brings people from all over the world here. and with them comes their money. and alot is spent. and that is how alot of money is made here in bc.

Offline silas

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« Reply #40 on: July 23, 2004, 02:34:10 PM »
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The fixed link between Vancouver and Vancouver Island was estimated at 5 billion in the mid 1990's. It

Offline James Buchan

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« Reply #41 on: July 23, 2004, 03:11:52 PM »
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The bid for the new vessels went out internationally and -- contrary to the assertion made by James -- domestic shipbuilders were invited to compete as well. The local company, Washington Marine Group, made it to the second phase of the bidding process but was not invited to the third because of cost and capacity estimates.

Misinformation plain and simple. That reporter got the canned version from whomever is the media liason with BC Ferries. I know people that were involved in that bid and they were pushed out due to politics, our bid was financially viable and well within the range of other bids. It's a case of palm greasing simple as that.

Hey Silas, name a city that didn't thrive financially due to hosting the olympics.... Salt Lake is still booming from the winter olympics they held. It's world recognition for the area that drives it, tourists flock to the area after seeing it in the positivly scewed light of the olympics.


 

Offline Mike Scott

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« Reply #42 on: July 23, 2004, 03:18:07 PM »
Montreal '76 (still in debt). Besides the point ^_^  

Offline hellgti

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« Reply #43 on: July 23, 2004, 03:18:19 PM »
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whoa, put down the pipe.

1 out of 3 aint bad. if you think that the olympics and building ships are keeping money in this province, you are sorely mistaken. when do you ever hear anything about the ship building industry making the province tons of cash? never. i'm sure they do well and have created alot of jobs, but are they making the province a ton of money? no.

and dont get started on the olympics. that is going to be such a money pit, it's not even funny. can you name one country/city that has hosted the olympics that has come out ahead of the game? no? because the olympics has always been one of the greatest ways to spend a ton of cash and get nothing back. and dont give me the whole \"it'll put bc on the map\" story.

bc is allready on the map. bc is known for it's natural beauty and outdoor adventure. the tourism industry is one of the strongest. cruise ships, huge. skiing in whistler, huge. surfing in tofino, huge. hiking, mountain biking camping, all huge. golf in the interior, huge. kayaking, fishing charters, boating, all huge. the beaches, the mountains and the weather in the summer. all of this brings people from all over the world here. and with them comes their money. and alot is spent. and that is how alot of money is made here in bc.
once again, you missed the point.   and again, i never stated ship building was going to be a powerhouse industry here.  pay attention.  the olympic bid....well, theres only a few cities that lost money.  do you honestly think that countries go nuts on their bids and proposals to lose a shitload of money in the end??  the olympics is huge buisness.  aside from that, i'll agree that BC is world class.  but it's still a bit of a secret outside of countries like Japan and America and some of Europe.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2004, 03:20:11 PM by hellgti »

Offline Island bugs

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« Reply #44 on: July 23, 2004, 04:30:20 PM »
Hey the apprenticeship program was well on it's way to ruin long before the BC Liberals got elected. The thing that has hurt our skilled trades the most was the anti-business NDP government that ran this province into the ground by driving away investment dollars, thus there were no jobs (hence no apprentices required) in any of our provincial industries.wayne

Offline Scratchy

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« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2004, 05:11:17 PM »
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Think about this. The fast ferries cost about $500 millon to build. But that money was borrowed, taken in the form of loans. By the time that money is paid back to the banks, the fast ferries will have cost more than a billion dollars, with interest. At the time the fast ferries construction started, the government of the day figured a bridge from the mainland to the island, would cost about a billion dollars. But they built the ferries, because a bridge was too expensive.
Well at least if they built a bridge, the money would (some of it at least) stay in the Province.
Even if they got an International contractor to build it, their employees would be spending money in BC,
as would the infrastructure to support the employees and project (trucking, food, hotels, etc).

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Offline Chris

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« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2004, 05:34:12 PM »
I dont agree about the apprentice program but all opinions have value, but you know its really great that so many politicians read this forum on a reguler basis.

I am sure that we have changed there minds by spending time bitching here and not doing something a little more direct!

Offline Chris

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« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2004, 05:41:09 PM »
Sorry forgot this part, I dont agree with you about the apprenticeship program as I had an opportunity to complete mine prior to the changes but now I have to accrue the time off through working overtime, which is currently being banned, and then come up with the $$$ to pay for the apprenticeship which has also gone up 400% this has occurred since the liberals came into power.  So now, I must take time off, make no money, pay my rent and bills etc and pay for school.

 

Offline Scratchy

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« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2004, 06:02:15 PM »
/rant on;

This kind of thing is happening in almost every industry. It has now become a Global economy. Things which once were considered local
are now International. I work for Telus. When I started, BCTel had a monopoly on the phone business in BC. We are now competing against
Bell, Rogers(AT&T) & soon Shaw. Look at the Airline industry - deregulation, national competetion is only a step away. The world is getting
smaller every day. Lumber industry - we are competing with Russia, USA, Chile. you name it. Go to London Drugs and see where that sheaf
of printer paper is made. You will be hard pressed to find some made in Canada. This is just a fact of the 21st Century.

By all means, if you can keep it local - do it! But do it only if it makes sense. Back in the 80's, my fellow workers (in Surrey) were going across
the border to buy their gas, milk & cheese. I felt strongly about spending money locally, and keeping this money in BC. I felt as though they
were being dis-loyal to the local farmers & industry. They felt they had the right to spend their hard earned dollar anywhere they wanted.
Since then, I have come to realize we are living in the 21st Century now, and things have changed. I still get pissed off when I go to Save-on
and see the Cherries, Blueberries, Strawberries, etc. from the US, especially when I drive past fields of these every day, but that is just a fact
of Global Economics. Things are changing in the world, and if you fail to accept this, then you will just get left behind.

/rant off

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Offline OUTKAST

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« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2004, 07:58:43 PM »
Politics and religion.Hmm! lets just piss one group off tonite so we will save religion for another nite . Yet ignorance favors into both topics . First of all you have to vote to have a say period ! Hopefully you all voted . I work 712 ironworkers and make a good wage / 4 year apprenticeship. First of the government outta fix the freakin apprenticeship program wich it dismantled 'and more people should be steered and informed about rewarding trades . Bottom line for me is The ferry corp who operatrs in B.C making money of taxpayers should at least make an attempt to let british columbians have a chance to benifit from there need to replace the ferries . That said we also have to be competitive in the bidding and build a quality product . The ignorance part comes into affect where as before one makes a final opinionthey need all the facts and from many sources as the media are just political puppets, and leak and promote there own sides . Kudos to you James for voicing an opinion and the rest of you to . more of us canadians need to become more informed and speak out about things that concern us .Just my 52and a half cents
Later Outkast
Next week RELIGION :P  

Offline OUTKAST

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« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2004, 08:09:45 PM »
BY the timke I posted my last reply two things came up in topic that reminded me SCREW the olympics UNLESS you make it manditory to be on drugs the whole games ,IOC federation , and I must say sorry for the true atheletes is CORRUPT!!!! YES the province wins economically But some locals will also loose you like Vancouver now how about after the Olympics when you'll be squeezed out to Hope And#@$#!!CK the sea to sky highway how many more people have to die on the transcanada highway from Kamloops to Alberta While Whistler and the rich Benefit from the OLYMPICS . Think I'll go have a beer Boy this stuff can sure heat a guy up
LAter Outkast

Offline James Buchan

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« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2004, 08:43:28 PM »
Just listened to a show on CKNW about the ferries - seems that BC shipbuilding industry companies were not invited to bid, it was always the intention to build out of country. Bid's were submitted anyways by BC companies. There's another log on the fire....

Offline OUTKAST

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« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2004, 09:07:47 PM »
Sat down with beer and thought of one other comment (my opinion) Global economy I might have to accept it but in some cases it's B.S . how And more importantly why should we compete with third world countries with human rights violations ,sub standard wages , and unscrupulous business practices .
Thats why people here have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet or both spouses and not have much extra left over . I'm considerded to make a good wage and don't live very extravagently (seriously )and still find month to month tough and i'm not living in the more costly lower mainland . I think if we go any lower to competer will wind up a third world .We need to be aware of where we spend our money and who's profiting and try and help the more community , globaly benefical companies first one person can make a difference . Enough of this for now I had a nice drive to work today in my lold van and i'm going garage sailing tommorrow
Later OUTKASt

Offline steveo_32

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« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2004, 11:26:20 PM »
I hear that the Inca's build great floaty things.................
We should try them!

I'll call around, I know poeple! :D  
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Offline silas

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« Reply #54 on: July 24, 2004, 01:24:28 AM »
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i never stated ship building was going to be a powerhouse industry here.

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building ships, housing construction, the olympic bid, all that are keeping money in this province.

i must have misunderstood you then. it seems you did say that ship building IS one of 3 industries keeping money in this province. so which is it then?

as for the rest of what you said.

almost every city that has hosted has lost money. (except nagano & sl city, but sl city paid over $340 mill for their games).

yes, i believe that cities go nuts on their bids and proposals and lose a shit load of cash in the end. the greed of politicians and the ioc is never-ending.

sl city was a disaster from the get-go. filled with scandalous bribing and greed. if it really helped them that much, was it really worth it in the end?

a quick google search resulted in this. an interesting read. and i realize that all facets of media are skewered, so everything read needs to be chased with a shot of jagermeister. jmho on the state of this topic. and again, no dissrespect to anyone here or their opinions. ;)

http://www.whistlerolympicinfo.com/economi...#Calgary%20myth



   

Offline oldfart

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« Reply #55 on: July 24, 2004, 02:39:39 AM »
:huh: KA-freakin DUH.of course build them here.And no comparision to the FAST CATS.   notice the caps?the fast ferries were a specialized vessel,built with no thought ,an accountants wet dream,politicians eventual nightmare.Designed and tendered for some other place.HIRE the salesman,he was smooth.Sucked us all in.And as much as i dislike the washington group of companies for being a bunch of clod hopping billionare hillbilly yankees,[yeah,met dennis,kyle well whatever.]At least some people will gain employment,spend thier pay here and...............gee..where is the downside?OOOOOOOOOHHHHH  ...accounting looks better overseas.A real big ..hm hmm...B.S. to that.B.C. has a great rep for sailors and shipbuilding.Remember these are conventional steel construction,propulsion,blah blah.And we have already built a few,ergo,no tool up costs.in case you are wondering from where I speak,god father [uncle] senior captain [top ooo 6] since they took over black ball line,youngest captain of the fleet.[24 at the time of promotion]Myself,former employee of washington,seaspan,now a tow boat captain else where,but definetly a strong proponent of build it here,sail it here.don't just e-mail them,your mla,spam the hell out of them.Remember,we actually need these ships,they are not 'cutting edge' like those pile o crap fast ferries,just good reliable ships.[with deep friers for fries!!]GET ON IT FOLKS,you all raised a www II bomber in holland,now let us build some really big boats eh?                              p.s. no offence,but i hated 'dock day' l
 ;) ol

Offline oldfart

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« Reply #56 on: July 24, 2004, 03:08:27 AM »
;) went on a rant before i read all the threads.Yes fast cats wre a f@#@##@ up,does'nt matter who was in power.centur class are a success.On time budget,but actually quite reliable for a ship that puts in those hours.as for other political issues............so what?rav,olympics,what do they have todo with the ferries?         Nothing.The big 0.If it is just about initial cost,i 'll buy ALL my parts in the states,bye bye local vendors,see ya later jobs.Personally I make obscene money,have way too much time off,BUT....I support locals.the crown takes thier[our] money overseas,hey should i too?IF this province and country are enough to live in,are they not a good place to invest in?Politics aside.Is patrisam[sic?] just a beer,a 5.00 flag and a long weekend?Support your fellow Canadians,for tom0orow YOU may need thiers. MY $25.00 worth.
 

Offline James Buchan

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« Reply #57 on: July 24, 2004, 10:11:19 AM »
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billionare hillbilly yankees,[yeah,met dennis,kyle well whatever.]

I agree Dennis can be a prick, but Kyle is cool - I've partied with him and work out with him often.

Offline moni

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« Reply #58 on: July 24, 2004, 01:42:10 PM »
i'm not weighing in on this one, but i'll throw in a few points here, just as food for thought:

BCFC. it's not an independent company. it's a crown corporation, which means it's a company that is owned by the provincial government, but operated at arms length. while they've got their own corporate hierarchal structure, the board of directors is hand-picked by the premier. it is subsidized by the taxpayers, but under the Liberals, BCFC has been instructed to become a sustainable enterprise on its own. hence fare increases, and paying more for the really bad food in the cafeteria.

bidding process. when undertaking a large-scale capital project such as building ferries, bridges, etc., the government sends out an RFP (request for proposals), and different companies/organizations/crown corps send in *huge* bids outlining every minute aspect of the job, ie. how much it'll cost, how long it'll take, etc., etc. the government has increasingly done this to ensure work comes in under budget. while i certainly am not going to opine on the issue, i find it interesting that james noted BC shipbuilders had developed a bid and were not \"invited\" to submit. as taxpayers, we should have our government officials considering every single bid from contractors, be they public or private, to ensure cost efficiency, viability, quality, and what the best interests of the B.C. populace are in general. as we all pay a helluva lot of taxes, this point should concern you most of all, as it smacks of bias and corruption.

taxes. i guarantee you 100 per cent taxes won't be going up in the next two years. why? it's an election year folks; think about it.

like i said, just some stuff to consider.
Sometimes I get the feeling the whole world is against me, but deep down I know that's not true. Some smaller countries are neutral.


Offline silas

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« Reply #59 on: July 24, 2004, 04:12:22 PM »
moni, good points. if it is in fact true that the local ship building firm did not get a chance to submit a proposal, then that is bogus. every company should get equal opportunity to present a proposal, no matter what.

taxes. even if they dont go up i believe the government will find other ways to make more money off of us. i may be wrong, but wasnt good old gordo trying to move the election date so he could spend a little more time at the top of the heap?

old fart. you're right. the olympshits have nothing to do with this. it was just a little friendly banter between hellgti and i. and kudos to you and your god father for all you've accomplished.

it's kind of unfortunate, but the fast cats do have something to do with this. for some people, all they believe is bc ship builders + fast cats = crap. i can step beyond this mode of thinking and see the big picture. it's not the fault of the guys and girls and company that built those ships. it was alot more. like you said, greedy politicians and some accountants wet dream. some people are so narrow minded and stuck in their ways that it becomes a \"whats done is done, they had a chance to prove themselves and blew it\" way of thinking. i say fug it. if a local company can do it right and at the right cost, then do it.

which again brings us to the whole \"patriotism\" of canada and bc. speaking for myself, i can proudly say that i love this country, province, city that i live in and will be the last one on this ship if it gets torpedoed and goes down. i'm proud of my roots and where i'm from and who i am. i'll shop locally and support local businesses and do all i can to make sure that the community i live in is well sustained and maintained.

however, i gotta protect my ass. i dont make alot of money and every $ is accounted for and spent smartly. EXAMPLE. and this applies to no one person or business in particular. it is an EXAMPLE that i think we can all relate to. some local person or business is selling a set of mint original magnesium brms for $6000 cdn. at the same time a person or business in seattle is selling a set of mint original magnesium brms for $3500 us. which ones would you buy? i'd buy the ones in seattle and spend the over $1300 i've saved, and take everyone that has contributed to this thread out to get hammered. :D