Author Topic: Engine Oil (Read 2601 times)

pockets · « **on:** February 24, 2006, 09:28:27 AM »

We have rebuilt our engine a 1600 installed it in our type 1 single carb pic 34 will change to dual carbs when money permits

What would be the best oil to use in it. She will be a daily driver. I am also thinking of installing an oil filter, any ideas on what is the best option?

68IIIbuggy · « **Reply #1 on:** February 24, 2006, 04:35:17 PM »

Asking what oil is the best to use is like asking which beer is the best. I use 20w50 Castrol year round in all my vehicles (except the diesels) from my 59 GMC 5ton to my 65 bus. Never had any problems, and I've flogged the bus thru 95 deg. heat. As far as oil filters go it depends on what muffler you're running. If you're running an extractor or similar you can use a pump with a spin on oil filter mount built in. I like these because it means you don't have oil running thru hoses outside the motor. A maxi-pump and remote mounted filter works too as long as you use good quality hose. This allows you to add an external cooler later if needed. (Youmight need one if you switch to dual carbs.)

silas · « **Reply #2 on:** February 25, 2006, 02:59:30 PM »

right now i'm using conventional penzoil 10w30 in my daily driver 1600 dp w/ 34pict-3 & 009. it starts easy on cold mornings (0-8 degrees C @ 645am) and runs well and maintains proper operating temp.

i may change to a heavier weight (20w50) when it gets warmer.

last week while i was filling up the tank at petro can, i ran into a guy named pandaz who used to work at cal-imports building motors. he swore by 20w50. he said that's what came in them when they were built at the wolfsburg factory (i think it was straight 30 tho? not sure) and that was all he used.

jason_hamilton · « **Reply #3 on:** February 26, 2006, 09:45:31 PM »

Maybe I'm old school, but in fifteen years of driving VWs I've always used 30 weight because my owners manual says to:

Bruce · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2006, 04:17:08 AM »

Jason, do you still use bias ply tires? The reason VW did not recommend multi grade oils was because 30+ years ago they were more expensive, and it was an economy car first back then. Today the price difference is trivial 10W-30 will crank over a lot easier right now than straight 30. It will flow easier, providing better lubrication to the bearings when cold.

Nobody should be using 20W-50 tar in their engines right now. Some guys look at their oil pressure gauge readings and see nice high readings. This makes them feel better. In reality, the thick oil is bad for your engine. The reason the pressure is high is because the thick oil can't get to the bearings. It backs up against the pump, causing the pressure to increase. In this case, increased pressure does not mean increased flow. It is oil flow that is most important. You will have higher oil flow with lower viscosity than with high viscosity. If you want to minimize the flow of oil to your bearings, continue to use 20W-50.

Here's an example of oil flow. My current driver is the Mexican Bug. It has hydraulic lifters that on occasion wouldn't pump up when first started. The damn oil just couldn't get into the lifters. Last Dec I switched from 10W-30 to 5W-20. The first thing I noticed was that the lifters always pumped up instantly every time. The thinner oil can flow more easily into the tight passages.

egspot · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2006, 05:47:51 AM »

Quote

Jason, do you still use bias ply tires? The reason VW did not recommend multi grade oils was because 30+ years ago they were more expensive, and it was an economy car first back then. Today the price difference is trivial 10W-30 will crank over a lot easier right now than straight 30. It will flow easier, providing better lubrication to the bearings when cold.

Nobody should be using 20W-50 tar in their engines right now. Some guys look at their oil pressure gauge readings and see nice high readings. This makes them feel better. In reality, the thick oil is bad for your engine. The reason the pressure is high is because the thick oil can't get to the bearings. It backs up against the pump, causing the pressure to increase. In this case, increased pressure does not mean increased flow. It is oil flow that is most important. You will have higher oil flow with lower viscosity than with high viscosity. If you want to minimize the flow of oil to your bearings, continue to use 20W-50.

Here's an example of oil flow. My current driver is the Mexican Bug. It has hydraulic lifters that on occasion wouldn't pump up when first started. The damn oil just couldn't get into the lifters. Last Dec I switched from 10W-30 to 5W-20. The first thing I noticed was that the lifters always pumped up instantly every time. The thinner oil can flow more easily into the tight passages.

this makes sence. just change your oil more often.

Emilio

silas · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2006, 08:57:16 PM »

hey bruce, two questions.

Quote

Nobody should be using 20W-50 tar in their engines right now.

right now yes, but what are your thoughts about switching to a higher viscosity oil in the summer when starting and running temps are higher? for example...10w30 now and 20w50 in late may/early june.

the only oil i've ever run in all my acvw's is 10w30. year round. i was thinking about changing in the summer, but if it aint broke dont fix it. right. B)

Quote

Last Dec I switched from 10W-30 to 5W-20. The first thing I noticed was that the lifters always pumped up instantly every time. The thinner oil can flow more easily into the tight passages.

why did you use 5w20 instead of 5w30? wouldnt 5w30 provide even more adequate lubrication at colder temps and a higher viscosity at higher temps than 5w20? wouldnt it be better to have the added range? would it be possible for the 5w20 to get too thin and lose it's shearing capabilities in this weather? after all, it was 10degrees C today.

Bruce · « **Reply #7 on:** February 28, 2006, 04:10:08 AM »

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. just change your oil more often.

Changing you oil more often isn't going to make up for the starvation your bearings receive from using thick oil.

Bruce · « **Reply #8 on:** February 28, 2006, 04:18:51 AM »

Quote

hey bruce, two questions.

right now yes, but what are your thoughts about switching to a higher viscosity oil in the summer when starting and running temps are higher? for example...10w30 now and 20w50 in late may/early june.

the only oil i've ever run in all my acvw's is 10w30. year round. i was thinking about changing in the summer, but if it aint broke dont fix it. right. B)

why did you use 5w20 instead of 5w30? wouldnt 5w30 provide even more adequate lubrication at colder temps and a higher viscosity at higher temps than 5w20? wouldnt it be better to have the added range? would it be possible for the 5w20 to get too thin and lose it's shearing capabilities in this weather? after all, it was 10degrees C today.

Silas, think of the weather we get compared to what happens in Phoenix. Then think of the available oil viscosities here compared to Phoenix. The thickest you get widely available here and in Phoenix is 20W-50. I would use 20W-50 if the temps here were sustained over 100

Glenn · « **Reply #9 on:** February 28, 2006, 12:18:21 PM »

During the warm weather I use Shell Rotella T 15W-40. In the colder weather i'd use a 10W-40.

silas · « **Reply #10 on:** February 28, 2006, 04:30:35 PM »

Quote

Silas, think of the weather we get compared to what happens in Phoenix. Then think of the available oil viscosities here compared to Phoenix. The thickest you get widely available here and in Phoenix is 20W-50. I would use 20W-50 if the temps here were sustained over 100

AlanU · « **Reply #11 on:** March 02, 2006, 12:15:42 AM »

I'm a synthetic oil fan but mind you most hotstreet vw engine cases get cracked open for maintenance frequently.

I dont think I've ever really heard of people scoring main bearings due to the use of 20w50 or other thicker oils. If you choose to use that oil its entirely upto you. I dont think oil starvation will occur from thick oils but logic will \"hopefully\" tell you not to use thick oil in the cold winter months due to oil pressure spikes as you start up the car in the cold.

I'm a rotella T fan just because of its oil additive package with alot of zinc. The oil is just a regular mineral group1 oil but its additive package is what is appealing to flat tappet engine owners.

Silas, ya gotta remember in Vancouver we are living in a moderate climate with no extreme cold or hot weather. 10w30 should be absolutely fine. The use of straight weight oils is old tech and it pours thick cold and retains the lubricating qualities of 30 weight when at operating temps.

I've been using European oil: ELF excellium 10w50. Its PAO based group4 synthetic and my reasoning is that it pours thin when cold and has lubricating qualities of 50 when at operating temps. When I beat the snot out of the engine I am praying its helping. Bruce mentioned how potentially the oil cct may divert the oil away from the cooler due to the thickness of the oil at operating temps. The stock plumbing is assuming thick oil is \"colder not requiring to flow completely to the oil cooler.\" Since I'm full flowed the oil is constantly flowing through my 96plate/ B&M supercooler so my ass is covered.

Just remember if people are running rich and contaminating the oil the viscosity goes down hill quickly. Fuel wash in the cylinders will eventually go past the rings and your 10w30 or whatever your using will soon be thinner. So yes change your oil.

In stock engines with no full flow I'd suggest sticking with 10w30 so that your plunger/springs work as VW intended. This will assure your oil is being cooled when the hot oil is being diverted to the cooler when it hits a certain temperature. Thats what I gather how the oil system works in the flat 4. Use whatever oil that doesn't let the dummy oil light to flicker in the hot summers and you should be fine. So the \"owner\" must determine what is good viscosity for the condition of the engine. Worn out engines with more oil clearance should use thicker oils to compensate.

I'm not a fan with all this new 5w20 oils in the newer cars(water cooled). Alot of manfacturers are recommending oil change intervals at 8000kms!!!!! with the use of the thinner oil I see it a great way of wearing engines alot sooner. Water contamination(short trips not getting full operating temps) will contaminate the already thin oils. 5w30 is probably more suiteable for all new cars but the car manufactures are also trying to achieve higher gas mileage for bragging rights. Blind faith believing the car manufacturers knows best in some way or another.

5w20 oils are usually higher in quality like a group 3 hydrocracked mineral oil or at least a group2 so its gonna mimic the charactertics of a real synthetic. Petro canada's 5w20 Supreme is a group3 to my knowledge so its equivalent to the Castrol Syntec products. So hopefully in a flat4 the oils will have good shear strength to handle Bruce T's abuse to his engines

Sometimes I think lifter bores is gonna benefit from a thicker oil but thats speculation on my part. I just noticed on my brutally abused 2110 had a quieter startup with 20w50 than a 10w30 oil. Thats got to do with the cold characteristics of 20w in the 20w50. Damn worn lifter bores!!!! mind you I had an easy 15,000kms with splat/scat lifters with my w125 cam.

holy crap do I write alot!!

Cameron · « **Reply #12 on:** March 02, 2006, 08:29:17 AM »

Gene Berg was \"THE\" guru, for VW performance.
Read what Gene has to say about oil viscosity HERE
\"Remember, the heavier the oil, the less it lubricates.\"
Gene had figured this out by 1964.

AlanU · « **Reply #13 on:** March 02, 2006, 06:48:19 PM »

Mind you after Gene's passing the synthetic oils now are completely different when Gene was alive. The R&D in oil formulas change constantly.

As far as detergents are concerned according to Motul and other guys formulating oils it has nothing to do with detonation. Thats not accurated apparently. This is what I've been told by my friend that is currently gonna market his own oil formula.

Oils base is just as important as the additives that are in it. So in other words you can have high quality ESTER synthetic but if the additive package is sub standard that multigrade will not perform well.

Bruce · « **Reply #14 on:** March 04, 2006, 01:46:08 PM »

I was waiting for Alan to jump in. Many of the new cars spec to use 5W-20 year round. I think that's pushing it, so I use 10W-30 in the summer. Given that many of them are now recommending 5W-20 year round, there's lots of safety margin in 10W-30, especially in our cool climate. Above this is 10W-40, and 15W-40. Using 20W-50 here in Canada is simply foolish unless your engine is so badly worn out it won't develop enough pressure.

Did you know that using 20W-50 will make your engine run significantly hotter? VW did not recommend using tar like that, so when they designed the oil cct they assumed thinner oil. The rear plunger is the one that decides whether the oil will go through the cooler, or straight to the bearings. When oil is cold, the engine will develop high oil pressure, forcing the plunger way down in it's bore. This sends oil straight to the bearings. As the oil warms up, it gets thinner and your pressure drops. When that happens, the plunger rides higher in it's bore, diverting oil to the cooler first, then to the bearings. When you put tar in the engine, the oil pressure when hot is a lot higher, so that plunger will ride lower in it's bore, bypassing the cooler.

Last winter for my trip to Mexico, I told Alan I wanted to try synthetic, and that I wasn't going to do an oil change along the way (~8000miles). He set me up with some ELF 10W-50 oil. The first thing I noticed was that I always had 5-10psi higher oil pressure. Then on the freeway, the whole way down to Cali, the engine ran way hotter than normal. (10-20