Author Topic: Shuffle Pins (Read 3303 times)

Trevor P · « **on:** December 30, 2004, 05:24:59 PM »

Thought I would pose a question to some of you that may be interested in sharing your thoughts. Shuffles pins: good, bad or otherwise?
I have never had any use for them, so what do some of you guys think? Like 'em or hate 'em?

Black-Back · « **Reply #1 on:** December 31, 2004, 12:44:14 AM »

My question is, if there is already 6 main crank studs, are they not already tight enough to keep the case from shifting at high revs? What does adding a couple of shims do extra, that the studs don't already do?(this ? has probobly been asked a billion time over the years, and I'm sure there is a good reason, I'd jst like to know)

Mike

Bubba · « **Reply #2 on:** December 31, 2004, 08:00:12 AM »

I think you have to look at the reason why people shuffle pin a case.

This is done to cure a condition where the case halves move in relation to one another. I believe that the only way this can happen, is if the thrust loads are beyond the clamping force of a properly torqued case.

Too much end play, excessive stroke at high RPM, twisting and flexing of crank due to poor design, too high RPM or unbalance, lousy aftermarket case studs, etc. may cause this condition.

So, now what you do to cure this problem, is you put steel pins into the thick part of the mating faces, further weakening the case, as these holes ar now stress risers.

Why not just build the engine properly, paying attention to all the details, using good quality parts, balance all the engine components PROPERLY, and keep the RPM's at a reasonable level for your engine, and you should have a motor with a reasonable life expectancy.

Without shuffle pins.

Leave that to the high dollar racers who need that extra 500 rpm.

Csaba

Trevor P · « **Reply #3 on:** December 31, 2004, 08:42:58 AM »

Exactly...like GB used to say...a bandage on your elbow for a sore on your knee.
I have no use for them, but 'am using the case coversion hardware kit which uses the larger nuts and washers on the case parting line, with a slightly increased torque spec. Figured it can't hurt, just to have a bit of insurance.

James Buchan · « **Reply #4 on:** December 31, 2004, 09:12:28 AM »

Quote

too high RPM

Is exactly why I went with them - my engine has seen 8k+ rev's.

Black-Back · « **Reply #5 on:** December 31, 2004, 06:50:32 PM »

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too high RPM

Is exactly why I went with them - my engine has seen 8k+ rev's.

Yes, high rpm is attained by some, but why not produce more power down low, with a larger stroke and bigger displacement, cam your engine to give more low and mid range, and you wouldn't have to worry about wrecking anything. I'm not the most knowledgeable about all this, but it seems to make sence to me, the reason for \"Stroking\" your engine is to gain more torque. or am I wrong?

Also James, you \"where\" dealng with a 69mm stroke, the only way to get power was to rev the crap out of it. no?

.02 cents worth

Hansk · « **Reply #6 on:** January 01, 2005, 12:32:21 PM »

Larry Widmer(theoldone.com) says , RPM = Ruins Peaples Motors

Black-Back · « **Reply #7 on:** January 01, 2005, 08:36:13 PM »

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Larry Widmer(theoldone.com) says , RPM = Ruins Peaples Motors

\"PEAPLES\"??? hehehe,you're funny Hansk!! But I agree, there are better ways of making power than winding the crap out of you're engine.(unless you're driving a F1 car.(up to 19000rpm in the Lolas and Jags, crazy)

Hansk · « **Reply #8 on:** January 01, 2005, 11:48:00 PM »

OPPS....peoples :lol: Anyway , he also said that an engine is NOT just an air pump. It's a \"combustion\" engine. His company seems to focus on combustion efficiency for performance gains. Lots of good reading there.

Bruce · « **Reply #9 on:** January 02, 2005, 02:00:40 PM »

Quote

you put steel pins into the thick part of the mating faces, further weakening the case, as these holes ar now stress risers.

That's not how shuffle pins are installed in a Beetle case. Instead of drilling like you suggest, the two center main studs are removed and the hole surrounding them is reamed very slightly larger. Both sides are done. Then a thin collar is installed using a press fit into the hole. The case half stud is then re-installed inside this collar. The amount of metal removed is minimal; there is no weakening or stress riser created.
IMO the biggest danger in doing this to an old case is not really anything to do with the collars or the machining, its the threads down low in the hole for the case half studs. Two times I have removed the big center main studs on 2 different cases. Both times one stud was in so tight from 30 years of use that they completely ripped out the threads on removal. I was lucky that it was on the short ones (bet you didn't know the upper ones are a different length than the lower ones?) so all I had to do to save the case was tap it deeper and use a longer stud from a dead case.

Black-Back · « **Reply #10 on:** January 04, 2005, 01:18:05 AM »

So Bruce, does installing shuffle pins really help?

Bruce · « **Reply #11 on:** January 04, 2005, 08:10:37 PM »

The flexing of the crank is what causes the two case halves from moving around. Using a short stroke VW journal crank will minimize the crank flex. Forged steel over cast iron also helps. But some guys want the most power you can get, and that means up to a 90mm stroke with small Chevy journals. Those cranks flex big time, so by adding the collars you will help stop the case halves from moving around.

Other than the cost, I see no downside to doing it.

I never bothered on my current engine, 78mm welded VW crank, VW journal.

Black-Back · « **Reply #12 on:** January 06, 2005, 01:24:50 PM »

I guess its recommended with an 84mm crank/2332cc then hey??

Mike

Bruce · « **Reply #13 on:** January 06, 2005, 02:46:43 PM »

Most 82mm and smaller cranks are made with VW journals. The larger VW journal makes for more overlap between the rod journal and the main journal, and thus a more rigid crank. If you are going with an 84 stroke, you can still use VW journals, but clearance gets really close, and you have to use the right connecting rods. I have heard of guys clearancing right through the case because they weren't careful.
I'd probably install the collars if I was building an 84 stroke engine regardless of the rod journal size. Beware, you must install the collars before you do your alignbore, just in case they don't align the two bearing saddles exactly the same as when it was new.

Black-Back · « **Reply #14 on:** January 06, 2005, 06:24:38 PM »

thanks Bruce.

Mike

Boost_Retard · « **Reply #15 on:** March 01, 2005, 10:22:49 AM »

I have done some \"looking into\" regarding the whole shuffle pin deal...
and just like everyone here has said..the only reason you would need them is if your case halfs are flexing and moving against one another..

I would say, if that is the case..you have bigger problems than what a shuffle pin can cure for any ammount of time..

my 2007 does not have shuffle pins..and i rev the piss out of it all the time..
my new motor wich uses a 86mm crank with type 1 rod journals will also be run without shuffle pins.
i dont think it will be a problem..and i know how im gonna drive it :mullet:

go for it if you really want 2...but read back through some VW mags...look around on web sites..
lots of big HP cars running without shuffle pins

Cale

James Buchan · « **Reply #16 on:** March 01, 2005, 11:59:43 AM »

Kinda like wedging your crank/fly and running slicks.... you only need it AFTER you break your first one - why not build it as strong as possible the first time and save the headaches later.....

Black-Back · « **Reply #17 on:** March 10, 2005, 07:49:35 PM »

Quote

Kinda like wedging your crank/fly and running slicks.... you only need it AFTER you break your first one - why not build it as strong as possible the first time and save the headaches later.....

Agree, Agree. Agree

dannyboy · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2005, 09:33:19 AM »

Quote

Kinda like wedging your crank/fly and running slicks.... you only need it AFTER you break your first one

your one to talk james...

James Buchan · « **Reply #19 on:** March 11, 2005, 09:40:46 AM »

Mine is....Bitch

Black-Back · « **Reply #20 on:** March 11, 2005, 08:33:11 PM »

ooooooooofh, testy much???

dannyboy · « **Reply #21 on:** March 11, 2005, 11:57:31 PM »

since when???