Author Topic: Failed Air Care...  (Read 6987 times)

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Offline captCRUNCH

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Failed Air Care...
« on: December 17, 2003, 01:57:31 PM »
hey guys, just went threw air care and failed on the idle test (passed flying colours on the driving test so i'm thinkin it might be the idle jet size). here are my readings:
idle test:
HC max 1052 i got 1807
CO max 5.54 i got 5.51
i'm running a 1641, with kads, 009, 1 1/2 merged exhaust if that makes a difference, and everything eles is stock. i also put in cheveron 94...
i have 55 idle jets in there now so would going to 50's help? Geoff do you guys have any kad jets in stock?? if not does anyone know where in the lower mainland i could find some?? would leaning out the mixture screws help at all?? i would think it would help on the co's but i'm thinkin not for the hc's...also this would make the motor run crappy and not be the \"proper\" way to fix the problem. any thoughts bruce? thanks guys.  :)

ohh yeah...my VIN # is 1122223221 on the air care site there's that search where you can see the test results if it helps at all. http://www.aircare.ca
« Last Edit: December 17, 2003, 02:00:47 PM by captCRUNCH »

Offline jim martin

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2003, 08:48:58 PM »
man , your car is plain pollutin,the reason your hc is so high is because of your high co which is causing rich misfire,you need to get to a place with a gas analizer,if not you can use the method of wind in the mixture screws, one at a time, till rpm drops then turn slowly out till rpm catches again ,this is called lean drop test if i remember. your milage and drivabilty should greatly increase my motor which is a bit bigger ran a 2.47 co and 347 hc at idle.
good luck ,                                                                                                         p.s   buy a case of beer and find a friend with a analizer




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Offline captCRUNCH

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2003, 01:46:50 AM »
thanks for the reply jim. i did adjust the mixture screws before i went (used AJ's method). my readings were high just on the idle test...thats why i think the idle jets could be the problem. anone eles have any thoughts?  

Offline Bruce

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« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2003, 04:04:54 AM »
(note to self, never play bullshit poker with VINs with him)

What did you change from the first 3 years to this year?  Note that the driving CO changed from below .5% on the first 3 tests to 1.3%.  What changes did you make to cause this?

While you passed on idle CO, your readings are all between 5 and 5.5%.  This is rich.  If you followed AJ's instructions, I would suggest you try the following:  After finding the best position of the idle mixture screws according to AJ's, turn them in 1/4 turn and see if the idle speed drops.  If it doesn't, you will have reduced your CO numbers.  If you can't go that 1/4 turn in, try 1/8 turn in.

Jim may be onto something.  Your mixture is so rich you may have a fouled spark plug, which may have caused a misfire while the test was in progress.

How hot was the engine during the test?  I took mine through last month, and I made absolutely no adjustments from last year.  But the CO at idle went from 3.9% to 5.1%.  One big difference was my oil temp.  Last year (3.9%CO) the temp was 190F.  This year (5.1%) it was a toasty 220F.  The hotter engine heats up the incoming charge, meaning less oxygen in the air, causing a richer condition.

Aircare trivia:  The CO reading while driving is a measure of your idle jet.  The speed and load on the engine while on the dyno is low enough that the main jet isn't in play.  Since your CO readings (in past years) are very low, your idle jet is not too big.  In fact, I'd say a bit on the small side.
The CO reading at idle is a measure of how you have adjusted your mixture screws.
The HC is a result of what your engine did with the mixture provided it.

Offline captCRUNCH

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2003, 07:39:45 PM »
thanks bruce. this is the first time going threw with kadrons...all my other tests were done with the 34pict4. i'll re-adjust the carbs and im gonna try putting some methol hydrate in the tank. i'll let you guys know how it goes tomorrow. *fingers crossed*

ok little bit of an update here...just finished adjusting my carbs and i think that my left carb was turned way too lean!! arg how could i do that when i supposably \"adjusted\" them the first time  :wacko: i heard a faint popping sound and was like what the he!!...tuned the screw out and voila!! smells and sounds much better (i adjusted both of them back and forth a couple of times). well i'll see how she does in the morning when i go back to air care.  
« Last Edit: December 18, 2003, 10:58:11 PM by captCRUNCH »

Offline captCRUNCH

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2003, 08:46:04 PM »
alright...a bit of an update here. after i adjusted my carbs (properly this time) i went back threw air care and aced the HC's but failed on the CO's. so i turned my mixture screws in 1/4 turn and whaddya know i finally passed air care. i did great on the CO's but my HC's were on the high side so i backed my screws out  1/8 turn and hopefully i found a happy medium. i gotta go back threw next week so i can renew my insurance next december (the 2 year test for older cars hehehe). thanks a TON for all the help guys! see yaz at the track or air speed!  

Russ

Failed Air Care...
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2003, 09:49:39 AM »
if you just passed aircare just put nine months on it when it comes time to renue,you can reinsure for another year before you have to aircare again(21 months)

russ

Offline Bruce

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2003, 01:29:39 PM »
Stop!  
Once you pass, don't touch the carbs.  Turn the mix screws back in 1/8 of a turn to the point where it passes, and will pass again in the future.  Then when you engine starts to run like crap, don't touch the carbs, its not them, its the ignition or valve train or something else.

Another thing, have them change your listed engine size to 1.5 from 1.6.  Since a stock 1600 is actually 1584cc, you should have it listed as the smaller size.  This will give you slightly more headroom on the cutoffs.  And its not cheating.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2003, 01:32:52 PM by Bruce »

Offline captCRUNCH

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2003, 08:41:08 PM »
went i worked there i was told that changing motor size doesn't really make a big difference (but it would make sence that it should). when i turned the screws in a 1/4 turn the motor was affected (rpm's dropped a bit) but thats how i passed, and if i were to set these carbs up how i like them, the screws would be out another 1/8 from what they are at now. if i were to turn the screws out right now the motor would pick up a bit more (and would run a lot smoother too) however at that setting i am passing no problem on hc's but fail barely on co's. i just need the thing to pass once more then i can set the motor up how i like and the settings where the motor runs best. whats the biggest motor/wild setup that you have taken threw air care bruce?? and how hard was it to get the gasses down to a 1600 level?? did it run smooth? i know that people say that if you have a hot set up then you need to make your motor run like crap to get it to pass be it a VW or any other car...but for the most part that is just a myth. it might not run the same as on the track thats all. thanks for all the help guys. B)  

Offline Bruce

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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2003, 04:08:38 AM »
Notice on your Dec 17 test you scored a 5.51%CO at idle and the cutoff is 5.45?  If the numbers were reversed you'd be pissed.  By changing your engine size, you wouldn't fail in that scenario -- although the engine size only affects the HC readings.  Also, the weight of your car is a factor in determining your cutoffs.  A Super Beetle will have different cutoffs than a Standard Beetle of the same year even though the engines are identical.  Changing your engine size gains you a tiny amount of headroom, and its completely legit, so why wouldn't you do it?
How does it drive when adjusted to make aircare happy?  You say it idles higher and smoother when you give it more fuel, but the CO readings say that shouldn't happen.  I would look at other causes.  It shouldn't take 5+% CO to run good.  It may be that you need to go bigger on the idle jet.  Maybe a 57.  It could be that your rich idle setting is compensating for a near flat spot just off idle.  By Upping the idle jet you will be able to lean out the idle setting.  This is what happend to me last year.  In my current 40 Dellortos, I used a 57 idle jet.  My driving CO was .5% (on the lean side)  And my idle CO was around 6% (very rich)  But that's the settings that made it drive really good.  So what I did was to go up on the idle jet to a 60, and wind in the mixture screws.  I got the driving CO up to 2.3%, and the idle down to 3.9%.  Right now in this cold crappy weather, it drives almost like a modern FI engine, better than it did before.

I installed my old 2 liter in '93.  It was 78x90, 40x35 040 heads ported, 8:1, Engle W-125 cam, 1 5/8\" exh. and originally with 40IDFs.  In the spring, I was working at trying to get through on CO, but couldn't make it.  At that time no one knew that it was the idle jet that affected your driven CO, so I was mistakenly changing the main jet.  I went down to a 100 from a 115, and all that happened was it drove like crap at the upper RPMs.   Finally we figured out that it was the idle jet that affects CO, so by going from a 50 to  a 47, I passed the numbers.  Keep in mind my car is a 75, so I have to meet the numbers for a car that was originally FI.  Where you are allowed 1052ppm of HC at idle, I have to beat 480.  I had been going out to Mission regularly during all the changes trying to pass, and when I had the final passing setup, that same setup without any adjustments netted my best ET I ever made with that engine combo.  It was 14.61@87mph.  That is with my heavy car (2000lbs even down the track with me in it).  Then a couple of years later, I ported some IDA manifolds and worked on them.  I think it was on my second attempt that I passed with 48s on it.  In that state it went 14.31@92.5mph at Mission.   I even taped the inspection report to my quarter window that year at the show in Coquitlam.  When I hear someone bitching about not being able to pass with their 50something Bug and tiny engine, I've got no sympathy for them, hey, I have to work a lot harder, with a bigger, wilder engine, and I made it, so why can't you?
You are absolutely right about most people's perception that it must run like crap to pass.  This is because there are ways to beat the numbers with an engine that runs like crap, and  everytime someone does this successfully, they have proven in their mind that it is true.  How many modern cars run like crap to generate the microscopic readings?  The ones that perpetuate the \"has to run like crap\" myth are just demonstrating their ignorance of emissions.  I have to admit its a real problem for DIY'rs like us to be able to do it right, how many people have the $$$$ to buy a 5 gas exhaust analyzer to put in our home garage?  Ten years ago I started using an O2 sensor.  It was very helpfull, like many have discovered today.  I've just found a cheap at home type CO meter.  For $150, you can get a real gas analyzer, but it only measures CO.  Unlike an O2 sensor, which just measures the presence or absence of O2, the Gunsen gas tester measures actual CO, just like aircare.  
Geoff, do I get the record for the longest post ever?

Offline AlanU

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2003, 09:42:42 PM »
well if your bored rig up a catalytic converter so that it will fit on your flanged merged exhaust.  If your not running ungodly rich the cat will not saturate and you'll actually get some decent numbers.

Its amazing how much work a catalytic does. Well a typical story is when late 90's 5.0L mustang owners take their cats out and install \"X\" pipes or \"H\" pipes.  A stock five \"O\" will produce an easy 1000 ppm HC's with a stock cam without catalytic.  Slap the cats back on with the airpump connected and you'll get down to 75HC's or less. The airpump feeds the oxidation properties of the cat and the \"afterburner\" will remove alot of unburnt Hydrocarbons.

If the cat is close enough to the flange it will not \"cool down\" and should be effective to remove/reduce alot of the HC's and the CO can go down into .0x % due to the cat.

Hey Bruce I think we gotta project.

Offline dannyboy

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2003, 10:05:51 PM »
hey alan,
il be fighting with aircare in the next couple of months, il gladly use my new 2 liter as a test bed for that project
-dan

Offline Pipes

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2004, 11:09:55 AM »
I just finished installing a Cat on my exhaust last night!  I stuck it in right after the flange coming out of the merg.  I'm running a stock 1600 with dual Kads.  I don't know a bloody thing about jetting a carb and I'm new to the Carb scene too.   I have a friend with a 5 gas anylizer (he sells them).  So I think I'll do a dry run with him and see how goes.  Should I buy different kinds of jets to test on his machine??  what else should I look out for?
Trying for low, show & go

1967 Beetle

Offline mikeT

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2004, 11:44:10 AM »
Hey Paul, I bolted a cat on to my merged header once and tried it I didn't have any luck, I think it wasn't getting hot enough to work prperly. let me know how it works for you!

Offline Pipes

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« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2004, 01:27:11 PM »
Will do man, I sure hope it works!!!
Trying for low, show & go

1967 Beetle

Offline Raymond

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Failed Air Care...
« Reply #15 on: January 27, 2004, 10:15:01 AM »
I took my 1776 w/dual 40 Dells through Aircare years ago and it passed on the first attempt without \"detuning\" it.  It was in a 75 Super so like Bruce, it would have had to pass FI standards.  The CR was a Berg inspired 7.1:1 and it had stock heads and the entire stock FI exhaust setup (cost me big coin!).  The cast sections from the exhaust ports to the collectors and then to the big FI exchangers were a very small diameter - probably to match the original 30.5mm exhaust valves.  I'll bet this aided in a more complete burn than a rolled-steel aftermarket exhaust.