Author Topic: Jim Martin  (Read 101462 times)

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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #330 on: January 05, 2020, 12:35:46 PM »
I love all of your updates Jim! Thanks for posting!

Thanks , I know it’s pictures from all over the place and a bit random
But we’ll get the heads done and get to some cool stuff and where it’s at now
In the WOK garage

   Here is something you may of never seen before ,
Need to freshen up your heads at the track , just slide the complete
Aluminum boss and guide out and replace it , pretty trick

Sorry real crapy it’s not that trick but actually a old school way still done
If needed to repair heads that no longer can support overaized valve guides.
Like I said these Frankenstein heads have all the tricks .
   So heads at this point are welded and repaired, spark plug threads repaired.
And valves are all inspected lapped in and tested for position and sealing ,what?
There is no valve rotation anymore . The clamping pressure of the valve keepers
Against the spring retainer and on the valve is so great there is never any real chance of rotation.
Now you know in this picture the valve to valve seat position has been marked .



This is the real way to check for valve sealing , this is a shot of my comp eliminators
At Darrens after a quick repair, you can see it’s built up vacuum over 25 inches and
Seals so well you can lift the head off the bench no problem , I do The same at work using my
A/C machines vacuum pump , as well tested and found best position on my heads this way.

  Recap , all head repairs performed . Valves guides measured and ok , valve position marked and tested
Spark plug threads and welding and machine work done , time for valve spring upgrade next




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #331 on: January 05, 2020, 07:38:26 PM »
   here we go ,Kmotion k800 valve springs ,Raceware head studs valve spring pressure tester and installed spring height micrometer


the next step was part need to know spring installed height and old spring pressure test
as well as test new spring pressures and adjust spring height .and test possible new spring retainers.
my old spring retainers are getting pretty beat up so I wanted to replace as precaution.
not so easy as like we know my heads are old and so are the valves which are still the 3 groove vw style and not the new
single groove v8 style that everyone uses now.the difference is also the angle of the keeper 7 deg for 3 groove and 10deg for single sure grip style.
well I did find a pair of 8mm /7 deg retainers made for my k800 valve springs made by comp cams , so brought a set in to check.hey never know ?
compcams on the left and my retainers on the right ,crap as you can see big difference on possible installed height but gotta check.

   So the data begins ,yep takes time but need to know -measure every installed spring height for all 8 valves to start

   this is where you need to be organized as its easy to screw up .
looks like original installed height on #1 exhaust measure 1.875"

once I had check all original spring heights time to check with the compcam retainers.
data done installed height for both retainers completed


   




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #332 on: January 08, 2020, 08:00:55 PM »
— So what does it all mean and why?
In the past always felt as motor seemed to roll over a bit and flat line power wise in the top end back of the track ,could be many many things and hey valve float could be 1 of them .
So that’s why collecting the old valve spring data was very important .
    Now data from Kmotion goes like this ,they do not give you a installed height but a coil bind number ,in my case k800 springs are good for max compression
Of 1.080”and from that add a safety cushion of 0.060” plus your lift say 0.560” add them up and that give me a min installed spring height of 1.700” so I have lots of room
From my old installed height of 1.860” , 0.160” is allot.
     Next I started measuring all my original springs pressures using my spring tester ,into the vice they go , not shown is 2 machine blocks I made
to keep things identical .1 block for original set height of 1.860” and the other block for 1.310” representing my old lift height .so when you tighten the vise pinching the spring against the
spring pressure measuring tool the machined blocks stop the Vise at the same point every time .

  Found some old data I had written down looks like this ,ill say im checking 2 things when I look back at it .
what were the original installed pressures and how bad are the springs worn at installed height and various lifts.
   I see for example my original installed spring height of 1.860” the old springs were 160 lbs and the new spring was 14 lbs stronger at 174lbs
                 OLD                     NEW
1.860"    160 lbs           174 lbs + 14
1.820"    178 lbs           200 lbs + 22
1.320"    394 lbs           439 lbs.+ 45

    Since I new my original valve lift and installed height I could use the chart on the Kmotion site and then compare at my end .
 1.860" right about 160 lbs, ok .minus my old valve lift say .536”= 1.324" so about 410 lbs, a bit weak but with out knowing how old these springs are not bad .
what I changed was this . 
  valve spring installed height shimmed to 1.820"  exhaust  (38mm SS valves )
and 1.800” spring installed height for the intakes (46mm SS valves )

so 1.820" - .550” = about 1.270” = 200lbs installed height and 450lbs  over the nose .
  And for the intakes 1.800” -.550 = about 1.250” = 210lbs installed height and 460lbs over the nose
Yep pressures are up ! Not huge but 40-50lbs is allot ,

Im sure I mentioned this but I removed all the inner springs ,and broke engine in on just the outer springs .
This combined with my previously mentioned break in has always worked for me so will never change .
1 more thingg CC the combustion chambers .down to 26CC's now

Head work done , fresh copper head gaskets and mounting hardware .time to torque them up .
Always great to have my girls help .


I was asked about torque wrenches ,yes I have both digital and clicker style ,both Snap-on and for engine work
I will always use clicker style ,I found it to be more consistant as you use the same speed and motion resulting with a release click .
Where as with the digital it doesn’t click just beep and I find as you approach the torque your pull speed varies to much resulting ion uneven torque .
Great for checking torque and certain things but not head studs
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 08:13:54 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #333 on: January 08, 2020, 08:12:27 PM »
great shot , heads fully torqued and you can see the trick 6th stud nuts , they recess into the heads and centre the 8mm head studs  ,
 again there just pretend now , but they still  look cool .
head studs are left long , great place to attach things ? in the future
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 11:14:37 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #334 on: January 08, 2020, 10:34:51 PM »
crossed a few more things off the list ,
  i know it was real basic and not allot of detail but it was supposed to be basic with some details tossed in
-guess this is where we are at ,remember this it was i think one of the first photos.
pushrod tubes,pushrods and rockers installed .valve covers going on and2 stage oil pump installed and some other bits .

 now we can look at some cooler things .
   
   RECAP: WOK engine quest for the 9's real biggest changes :
     -  turbo exhaust housing and billet inlet wheel
     -  camshaft
     -  headstuds
     -  valve springs
     -  clutch
and all the stuff to make it fit and work
   im always asked so many questions about the engine so figured post up the basics , im not a big brand name dropper but always add
it as someone always wants to know .fyi: the basics of this motor are real OLD school parts ,still going strong .

- ARPM case all type 4 main bearings , center flange conversion and oil modifications
- 88 mm scat flanged crank, 6 doweled
- 5.7" eagle rods, chevy clevlite bearings
- crowler camshaft , scat slr treated lifters
- CE straight cut gear set
- all bearings calico coated
- Pauter 94mm cylinders
- JE pistons
- total seal rings , gapless 1st at present
- ARPM modified heads 38/46mm valves, k800 springs ,heavily repaired and modified
- 10mm raceware headstuds
- manton pushrods
- scat 1.4 rockers with oiling mods
- CE dual groove pulley



- replace 4th gear and at same time replace all synchros and inspect trans, test new torco transaxle fluid
- go through motor and make sure its solid
- replace valve springs and reset spring pressure
- install EGT temp probes
- modify fuel system for high speed lean out
- upgrade clutch system to rev6
- repair damaged turbo and discuss options
- perform options to turbo and upgrade inlet to billet wheel and eplace exhaust housing
- fabricate new exhaust outlet pipe
- fabricate new intake manifold
- clean and simplify engine wiring and pipework
- test new ECMS ,clutch management system focus on consistent low 60 foot times.
- rewire complete car electronics
- fabricate and wire completely new data logging system
- tune new fuel curve as per new EGT data and work on aggressive but safe tune
- replace frt and rear shocks
- replace rear torsion bars
- dry sump oil system
- vacuum pump
- MFI
- reset and alter alignment specs for new speed
- finish testing new night-stick select shifter
- replace camshaft and not because I wanted to but had to
- haul ass and go fast

this list will help me go through topics and can cross a few off already
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 11:07:59 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #335 on: January 10, 2020, 07:15:41 AM »
Dry-Sump oiling .
who says can't be done ,not me.
  the main issue in running dry sump oiling in a VW bug is SPACE.
Tube chassis race car , no issue .Steel bodied vw big trouble .
many that try give up and put the Oil tank inside the car ,totally dangerous as having
6-8 litres of 200 deg flammable oil inside a car during a accident could be bad .
  So where to put it ?
2 things need to happen . First find a pump and second find or make a tank .
I also needed a pump that has a fuel pump drive on it .
Ok these are rare now as old school mechanical drive fuel pumps are not used to much anymore .
   I was looking for a Auto-Craft 2 stage pump with drive ,took some time but finally lucked out and found a brand new one from Roger Crawford .!!!!
wow that was like hitting the jackpot .N.O.S.
mounted it on my old mini lathe and broke in the pump for about 1 hour .that sucker moves oil !!!
   It was original very hard to turn , tight ! excellent ,and did loosen up after run in time .wanted to get any debris out of pump.
I did premeasure and had room for the extended length of the pump as well was lucky the drive cleared as well, just needed to
change direction of my hilborn MFI pump and add some new mounting holes .
oil lines well a issue

« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 10:46:34 AM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #336 on: January 12, 2020, 05:20:32 PM »
  Pump , check.
now that I had it in my hands it was time for the tank .
I managed to find a small dragster tank from Peterson fluids .
after a phone call I received the PDF of the tank and made a cardboard mock up .
well looks like it might fit ,its tight but with a bit of thinking should work out.

  ordered tank with heater and got my fitting installed ,also made a poor boys site glass from some teflon tube ,works very well for watching the oil level

mounting brackets installed

and tank in no problem
  Space was very tight and I used a combo of special AN fittings , since AN-!2 line is not the most flexible it take a bit more outa the box thinking.
But it all worked out .


  now since this photos the tank again has been modified with some additional fittings .
bungs for additional temp sensors ,better location for site glass tube ,magnet holder and most important inlet from vacuum pump - oil in and out are
an-12 , breathers are an-16 ,oil pump prelude an-8
now that I don't have this massive 4" deep sump hanging from the bottom of the engine I also got from Roger a brand new
Auto-craft drysump pick up ,found this pic on the net .
uses a AN-10 to the suction side of the 2 stage pump

out of the pump same setup AN-8 oil lines .

I was asked why dry sump ?well its real cool ,na more than that , like I had mentioned im all about crankcase pressure/blowby control .
over the years I have blown my share of oil onto the track surface and finally never wanted to be that guy again .
    pretty easy .no oil in the motor , no oil to leak as well as less crankcase pressure as you just free'd up space in the motor that
was taken up by engine oil and never have to worry about a consistant oil supply under the hardest acceleration .
no brainer.
also combine it with a vacuum pump and its unmatchable .this combo is with out a doubt the best thing I have done .

« Last Edit: January 12, 2020, 05:34:13 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #337 on: January 12, 2020, 05:22:15 PM »
 single and dual clutch combo's

- replace 4th gear and at same time replace all synchros and inspect trans, test new torco transaxle fluid
- go through motor and make sure its solid
- replace valve springs and reset spring pressure
- install EGT temp probes
- modify fuel system for high speed lean out
- upgrade clutch system to rev6
- repair damaged turbo and discuss options
- perform options to turbo and upgrade inlet to billet wheel and eplace exhaust housing
- fabricate new exhaust outlet pipe
- fabricate new intake manifold
- clean and simplify engine wiring and pipework
- test new ECMS ,clutch management system focus on consistent low 60 foot times.
- rewire complete car electronics
- fabricate and wire completely new data logging system
- tune new fuel curve as per new EGT data and work on aggressive but safe tune
- replace frt and rear shocks
- replace rear torsion bars
- dry sump oil system
- vacuum pump
- MFI
- reset and alter alignment specs for new speed
- finish testing new night-stick select shifter
- replace camshaft and not because I wanted to but had to
- haul ass and go fast

this list will help me go through topics and can cross a few off already




the 'WOK" June 2006 Hot VW's feature car  9.830 sec at 143.44 mph.
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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #338 on: January 13, 2020, 01:28:52 PM »
-  i have run allot of clutches , really every time i pulled my motor i would try something new .
Single setups this is what worked and survived ; Kennedy pressure plates in both the standard and aluminum shoe stage #2
combined with either the Cooperhead disc or Daikin disc - both worked excellent and for me i would give the Cooperhead the nod
over the Daikin for a bit more abuse at the track and say the Daikin for aggressive street use .
  And same setup for milder engines with a stage #1 pressure plate would be fine .




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #339 on: January 14, 2020, 01:30:47 PM »
Dual disc clutch setups .
   Why? for many there is really only 1 main reason but for me 2 reasons .
1st -is the ability for the clutch to hold more power by doubling the surface area ,makes sense for higher horse power cars .
2nd - and equally important for me is the ability for the clutch to take more heat caused by slipping controlled by my D.I.P  electronic clutch management controller (ECMC) 
allowing for smooth and controlled launches while saving that important ring gear . Clutch Management is a topic for discussion on its own, well get there soon.

  there are some things that need to be understood with using any clutch system , its the weight of the clutch discs being accelerated or decelerated by the syncro's in the
transmission as well as shifting or engagement speed  . yes, gear oil is very  important to allow the correct amount of slip and friction to allow for correct operation .
  my transaxle uses standard syncros so you can see why this is very important for me .
Also not many know this but all i have ever used in my car is the original 100% Stock shifter , no fancy unit in there but Stock .Why , obviously to keep my engagement shift speed down
and save my syncros , trust me i still was shifting at times quite fast but smooth .

   OIL--quickly on that again , i have tried many gear oils and there are some i like better that others . but again this stuff is unbelievable , trust me . USE IT .
I have been sponsored by Lucus oil for years now ,but one thing they haven't been able to supply is a transaxle oil .
a little leg work and I have found the perfect product .100% WOK certified as the stuff to use .
like I was saying no wear in my transaxle !!,this is nuts I cannot tell you how much abuse and passes this unit has put up with .
 this oil does what it says it does .USE IT if you want your gearbox to live and shift like there's no tomorrow.
click torco and read up on it ,you'll see why  .
TORCO

   This is the first Dual clutch i used , ya did not survive , and did not like to slip and was very noisy
Its a Tilton dual disc setup and you can see in this picture ( from flywheel looking up to pressure plate )
the amount of warp and areas of no contact , would i recommend this clutch , Yes but not for a slipping application but maybe a on/off race application , not slip and drag  .
the weight of both tilton discs is less than most single discs , so shift speed can be very fast , due to the syncros ability to slow or accelerate the discs quickly between shifts .






 
 




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #340 on: January 14, 2020, 03:18:43 PM »
  Now here is a absolute work horse of a dual clutch !!!
this is the Kennedy dual disc clutch , plus used only a stage#1 pressure plate , yep who says you need a stage #2 all the time .
its all about matching components and adjusting clamping pressures , if i remember i shimmed the pressure plate with 0.030" washers
to gain another few lbs face pressure . smooth as butter , easy pedal pressure and holds like a vise grip when needed . if i was going to use it again
only and only because i was upping potential motor output i would of replaced the pressure plate with a stage #2 .
i have put 100's of passes on this clutch , 100's of hard launches and quite a few street miles on it .
from the flywheel looking up to pressure plate .

and from the pressure plate looking down to the flywheel

check out the floater still flat , nice colors but you can see the slip marks .
these are not a issue and even thoe the motors been in and out and apart multyple times i never touched the clutch at all .
if its flat dont mess with it !!! if its holding dont mess with it !!!

the notches machined into the flywheel are to support and lock the floater plate between the discs .
again still flat and lots slip heat check markes , also this is a 6 bolt , 6 dowel flandged flywheel .


   




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #341 on: January 15, 2020, 01:33:20 PM »
    So if the Kennedy dual disc worked so good and for so long and still has tons of life in it why change ?
i noticed my transaxle was becoming a bit notchy , not miss a shift or grinding notchy  just notchy feeling .
so since i was making a 4th gear change  a closer inspection showed the syncros were slightly bent so they would not sit evenly on the syncroniser cone .
of course they were replaced , But what caused this .
   I already new the only real down-point  is the weight of the Kennedy 2 discs , there are full size 200 mm discs and  each one weighs more than a stock disc .
so put 2 heavy large diameter discs in there and those poor syncros need to work very hard accelerating and decelerating the mass of 2 heavy discs .and because of that
they took a bit of a small beating . now remember the Kennedy clutch has been in there for years of abuse ,so syncro issues after hundreds of passes and hard accelerating shift , no big deal .
would say to be expected at some point .
  SO moving fwd still with the plan into the 9's requires so many small things to come together and another piece is spend less time easy cautious shifting and not accelerating .
But get into the next gear quicker and back to accelerating . this should also do something else . by shifting quicker and getting back on the throttle should help keep the car
more stable between shifts as the car will not unload and reload the rear suspension .
 Out with my old Stock shifter and in with a new prototype shifter "night-stick select from wolfgang ent " this is a unit i have been helping Steve perfect and
yes will be able to dial-in my shiftspeed/reduction , more on this shifter later .
  Clutch choice that will still hold the poewer i make and take the heat and abuse of slipping and allow for rapid shifting with a syncro gear box
Ron Lummus REV6 is the choice .

 
   


« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 03:17:50 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #342 on: January 16, 2020, 03:05:42 PM »
  Advantages , well there are quite a few .
- Ron sets up the initial assembly from his knowledge base and sets the shim height and selects the combination of discs and pressure plate springs
- Rons help at any time , unbelievably fantastic assistance !!!
-3 different clutch disc combos : aggressive/slippy/50/50 aggressive slippy
-3 different pressure plate spring tensions  : light / medium / hard
-adjustable initial slip by setting shim height changing pull down leverage point
- centrifugal weights to help apply more clutch clamping under high rpm
- small 6" diameter clutch disc for extremely quick shifting due to smaller diameter and weight  of the rotating clutch mass.
ability to take huge amounts of heat through use of clutch disc material as well as very thick floater , pressure plate and flywheel surface .
  not bad at all !!!
LETS TAKE A LOOK , as arrived and after track/street abuse .
above picture is as arrived , now pulling it apart to inspect
   12 point arp nuts removed and pulled the clutch cover off, this is what holds 1 of the 3 available pressure plate springs , mines a Medium.
mine has 3 centrifugal weights

pressure plate , this is what the pressure plate spring pushes against on 1 side and the other against the top disc  , basically a special top floater
its held from rotating by the 6 indexing lugs in the pressure plate spring

top disc is a 50/50 combo . half aggressive and half slippy

under the top disc is the centre floater ,held from spinning by the 6 aluminum posts

bottom disc , see how small that unit is compared to a standard  almost 8" vw clutch disc

my bottom disc is a aggressive

and finally my 6 bolt , 6 at  8mm dowel flywheel , not lightened and weighs the same as a standard vw flywheel
also now you can see the 6 aluminum post very well and the shimming washers to set pull down height are bellow those , i had 13 shims at 10 thou each


   







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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #343 on: January 16, 2020, 06:00:38 PM »
  So how did the REV6 perform ?
very very well , it performed just as it was designed to do. held under full boost ,took massive amounts of heat from slipping ,
allowed me to shift very fast and smooth .
would I recommend this unit , Yes I would .there are single and dual disc versions as well as a full street version now ,well looking into
check out Rons products they are excellent quality and support
https://ronlummusracing.com
  Now ,like any component there is never a install it and never touch it deal ,everything need adjustment .Ron does a excellent job reviewing your data
and building the clutch tailored to your needs . the only thing I found outa the box was that I could use a tad more slip as it was a hair to aggressive
for me ,this is due to mostly the way I drive ,im not a dump it kinda guy but a more easy out the pedal guy ,that makes a big difference to clutch set up.
I was used to a very controlled long gentle slip using my ECMS controller and Kennedy clutch ,so this was a bit of a learning curve using a Clutch
designed for use without any form of clutch management . this applied power to my rear wheels a lot sooner forcing my back end to plant hard against my shock stops .
   After breaking in the clutch as per Rons instructions and doing some testing at mission ,making suspension ,shocks and tire adjustments it was now performing
very well but still a bit aggressive ,so I reconnected my ECMS and added some timed and controlled slip .Wow now I could see I was heading in the right direction .
  After talking with Ron it was time to remove the engine ,inspect the clutch and make adjustments .
this is the time now that the motor was out again to modify the exhaust turbo housing and exhaust and make the new intake .Clutch looked good and photos sent to Ron.
  Now my clutch was originally adjusted to .080" pulldown that was changed to .100" pulldown .this will now allow more initial clutch slip before full engagement .
lets see how its held up .
  Flywheel , you can see the shims under the aluminum stands , lots of clutch dust in the slots and lots of heat slip check marks .
shows the clutch is working hard and there is some slip ,and good contact

  backside of the  floater , again good contact .,slip and check marks, sucker is taking heat .
between the flywheel and the backside of first floater is the aggressive disc .

top side of floater , big difference this is where the 50/50 disc is sandwiched ,wow big difference ,longer slip marks as well

backside of pressure plate , again long slip marks but less heat generated

  Very interesting to see the difference between the 2 disc and the contact surfaces . the thing works !
talked with Ron the other day and will send the complete unit down for inspection and refresh
  more on this clutch and how I abused it testing my ECMS later on
« Last Edit: January 17, 2020, 05:13:12 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #344 on: January 17, 2020, 05:56:31 PM »
 Quest for the 9's list
When I start going through this it was really a lot of work ,so many little things but all important .
 looks like the meat and potatoes are done :
.Trans inspected and new synchros and 1.00 4th gear
.Turbo repaired and upgraded with a billet inlet wheel and new exhaust housing ,header pipe fabricated
.New camshaft ,shorter duration more lift
.Engine inspected and overhauled
.k800 valve spring inspected and installed and readjusted
.EGT probes installed
.New REV6 clutch in ,tested and adjusted
.New intake fabricated
.Drysump oiling , done previously

I guess the last thing to talk about before some cool fun stuff is my vacuum pump system ,everyone asked , even from around the Globe I still
get e-mails and questions , so guess this is next .
- replace 4th gear and at same time replace all synchros and inspect trans, test new torco transaxle fluid
- go through motor and make sure its solid
- replace valve springs and reset spring pressure
- install EGT temp probes
- modify fuel system for high speed lean out
- upgrade clutch system to rev6
- repair damaged turbo and discuss options
- perform options to turbo and upgrade inlet to billet wheel and eplace exhaust housing
- fabricate new exhaust outlet pipe
- fabricate new intake manifold
- clean and simplify engine wiring and pipework
- test new ECMS ,clutch management system focus on consistent low 60 foot times.
- rewire complete car electronics
- fabricate and wire completely new data logging system
- tune new fuel curve as per new EGT data and work on aggressive but safe tune
- replace frt and rear shocks
- replace rear torsion bars
- dry sump oil system
- vacuum pump
- MFI
- reset and alter alignment specs for new speed
- finish testing new night-stick select shifter
- replace camshaft and not because I wanted to but had to
- haul ass and go fast

this list will help me go through topics and can cross a few more off now




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #345 on: January 17, 2020, 05:58:04 PM »
  Vacuum pump and why not crankcase ventilation : hugely important topic lots of progression pictures , need to edit them a bit ,will take some time .
and again if you have a question or comment post it up , just dont always e-mail me .

  So for fun ,
  Had a few people e-mail me about my ECMS - Yes it works very well  .
But until i test final version with a few more bells and whistles it'll have to wait but, will get info up soon with data and video of both with and without controller.
   but does it work , Yep here is the proof 
this is the 3rd pass testing at mission with the ECMS set-up with REV 6 clutch , night-stick select ,16 psi in tires , 14-15 lbs boost
 1.404_ 60'

« Last Edit: January 22, 2020, 07:26:41 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #346 on: January 25, 2020, 10:08:18 AM »
      here is the typical or close to typical set-up .#1
cheapo breather box and vent lines from both valve covers ,fuel pump port as well as a small k@n on the generator stand .
does it work ? yes and no .
  What did i learn from this ,oil will take the path of least resistance .and more vents is not always better.
This is where i really started to learn about crankcase breathing issues and actually making it worse .
!! using too small I.D lines is a big no no .more vents don't mean success.
  oil would push up the valve cover hoses and fuel pump port and i see now i have one more line which is a
oil drain from the vent box to the alternator stand ,you can see that fitting bellow the k@n on the alt stand .
and overflow it . basically the system caused hi and low pressure spots causing oil to move and push everywhere ,BAD


  Progression time #2
  Looks like i decided to separate the oil from the crankcase pressure and added a Berg breather system .
still venting valve covers but this time eliminated the fuel pump inlet to the breather box and put the drain tube from
the breather box into a water bottle .
 the Berg breather has 2 ports which are to be used for valve cover vents but looks like a used one for the fuel pump port and the other into a bottle .
Why into clear bottles ? that was to measure the amount of oil that was being moved .


progression#3
  looks like im finally learning something ,but not that smart yet
Crankcase venting is the KEY so dedicated AN-12 vent to a dedicated breather tank ,used the Berg system still to vent the valve covers and i installed a restriction
on the alternator stand to Berg breather so basically 90% of the crankcase pressure goes through the fuel pump port leaving the Berg unit to vent the valve covers  .
but still moving oil ? why .not quite there yet


progression #4
   I did so much testing between every system i cant even begin to tell you .i was still amazed at how much oil would move up and through the fuel pump port .i had
installed a long clear hose onto the port and ran the motor ,bingo !! at like 3500 rpm oil would just fill and flow up the clear line .made no sense at the time but eventually figure it out .
  Now i was learning about oil movement ,  without the fuel pump guide plate installed in the engine case , that port ends up getting flung with full oil coming whipping off the crank/cam gear. So add high air movement up the tube and bingo major issue .so looks like i finally figure it out .take the venting crankcase fumes from the other side of the cam gear and hey looks like VW figured that out with a oil deflector plate and internal webbing .ditched the Berg breather and plugged the oil filler port as well as added another vent off the #1@2 valve cover only .
 the #3@4 fills with oil very quickly from oil flung from rotating crankshaft , so i added drains from the bottom of both heads to my oil sump to help .
did this system work . yes if i remember it did but was not exactly what i wanted .much more testing ,baffling,testing lines and positions and i had it beat .
now i dont have a photo but i had connected 1" hose only to the alternator stand outlet and into a large container .bottom line was the larger line allowed the crankcase fumes to slow down and allowed the oil to drop out of suspension HMMMM no we have it 
  SO what to do and not do , thats next
« Last Edit: January 26, 2020, 11:10:57 AM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #347 on: January 30, 2020, 03:52:47 PM »
how about some fun from years ago  ,surrrrre why not
   ok doesnt happen often , how about 5 vw out for a drive.
 question #1
i have a prize for who ever can name who at that time owned and drove those 5 cars?
 question#2
i believe 4 of the 5 were featured in hot VW's , which were they

 how about some old race shots, surrrre why not
Alan testing that ring and pinion

darren getting ready to stage

yep even James B was out getting it done


« Last Edit: January 30, 2020, 05:10:21 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #348 on: January 30, 2020, 04:23:59 PM »
So what and what not to do ,this is what i recommend .
#1~ ring seal ring seal ring seal - get the cylinders round .
#2 ~vent only from the alternator stand with a min 1" hose with a large box mounted as high as possible.
#3~ run a vacuum pump ,will always run one to many advantages not to run one.
not looking for a pissing match and yes i know there are many ways but this is what i know works without issue.
  FYI: i have run my car with and without a vacuum pump .also i log crankcase vacuum/pressure ,and yes there is no crankcase
pressure when run without the vacuum pump , why good ring seal and the case is well ported ,has no oil in it and most important
is able to breathe freely without restriction .
  SO why change it if it works so good , well because you can always make things better . i started experimenting with elimination of breathers
and only running a vacuum pump ,and yes i had issues but instantly fixed my major issues .
  my biggest issues were blowing oil on decel , oil leaks and overflowing breather tanks .
VACUUM pump begins now

  this was my first set-up ,very basic , nitrous engine with GZ motorsports sportsman pump .
pulley is from the good guys at CE / competition engineering. engine is fully sealed ,  circled in yellow is the vacuum control valve which is basically a controlled vacuum leak
used to regulate max crankcase vacuum ,in this set-up i tapped and baffled a alternator stand which following the red line feeds the pump and yellow is out to the breather tank mounted beside trans on passenger side

  Did it work yes very well actually 2 well and i would draw basically 1/2 litre of oil every pass .BUT ! no more oil leaks,blowing oil everywhere and decell issue .
time to make it better , what did i do . modified my baffles in the alt stand and made a cool custom oil separator tank in between the alternator outlet and inlet to the vacuum pump,
will show that later ,this now used the principle of large 1" I.D hose and a high mounted oil separator tank then feeding the vaccum pump .this setup got rid of 90% of the oil in the low mounted breather tank ,very happy .




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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #349 on: January 30, 2020, 06:42:51 PM »
focus here on the oil separation tank . this is what was talking about and added to the above nitrous engine .
red line out from engine and to bottom of tank ,yellow line out from tank and into vacuum pump and blue outa vacuum pump and into breather tank.

 Turbo time ,yep time to unleash the Boozer motor .vacuum system worked so good must be ok for a 2442 cc,MFI , methanol, turbo ,WET sump motor .
well yes and no , i see in this photo im progressing slowly along the vacuum evolution chain and have eliminated the vacuum control valve .
why  because my vacuum pump could not keep up with the higher crankcase pressure ,quite common when burning methanol ,running MFI and a very rich mixture.
this is where the vacuum pump shines , we all hear that alcohol /methanol motors milk the oil due to oil saturation , no imagine a vacuum pump sucking those
fumes out and away so best of both worlds - clean oil and no oil leaks !!

  So time for a bigger vacuum pump enter the GZ motorsport 102 ,  as well added a new more precise vacuum control valve

  This unit bolted right up to my old mount and just needed some new 1" hose .wow this thing worked i could pull 10 inches easily from idle
and all the way down the track .BUT it worked so good was moving oil again so modified the case and alt stand with some baffles to
help control oil mist .
 double vw baffle in the alt stand

and a additional oil deflector in the case

  This help allot so what have i learned .
- if there is a small airleak anywhere in the motor it will cause air movement withing the case picking up oil along the way .
so test and make sure you are leak free .that is done by pressuring the motor with about 1-2 psi and soapy bubbles everywhere .
my leak was at the distributor, nuts sealed that up quick .
 So what next , Easy dont want to move oil in the system .DRY SUMP IT .
now that was covered a bit earlier but know i was able to get rid of the 4" sump below the engine and gain some clearance
as well as get rid of close to 6 litres of oil in the motor , that frees up case internal volume ,with the addition of the DRY sump system i was seeing light at the end of the tunnel .









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Offline owdlvr

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #350 on: February 03, 2020, 05:53:24 PM »
Love it!

...Though, I'm a little jealous of your pump score. I need to find a replacement for my pump after 280,000kms.
--
'71 Type 1 - Rally Car Project
'75 Type 1 - Heirloom
'95 F150 - Unfortunate daily driver...

Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #351 on: February 09, 2020, 02:54:41 PM »
Love it!
 
...Though, I'm a little jealous of your pump score. I need to find a replacement for my pump after 280,000kms.

I’ll keep my eye open Dave ,i have a contact that may be sitting on a pump or two will see what his plans are .
 
      OK , Dry-Sump tank is in ,time for the ultimate set-up .now that i can see the light at the end of the crankcase/oil combo tunnel !!!
  I did ended up running 3 set-ups, each 1 progressing after the next due to a small issue ,lets look .
  First step was to modify the Dry-Sump tank,
With the tank out a vacuum inlet pipe (RED line) was added to mirror the existing AN-12 line oil inlet pipe  (blue fitting).
  The air inlet is 1" ID of course and twins the oil inlet from the scavenge section of the Dry-Sump pump.
This works great as the oil entering the tank and the crankcase fumes and oil mist from the vacuum pump mix and swirl in the top of the tank together in the same direction .
  Tank breathing  ( blue line ) goes and up to my repositioned remote breather tank .

   From the breather tank i have a small clear 3/8 line that runs down and connects to a petcock ahead of the right rear wheel so i can drain off anything collected in the breather tank and monitor both oil or methanol collection .

  Some info - all my breather lines are 1" I.D!! As well as fittings are modified AN-16 fittings with the I.D bored out to min 1" I.D.
- all lines run uphill when needed to promote oil separation as well as downhill as needed to not allow oil or methanol to puddle !!
you can see the big advantage now , i completely separate and remove all the methanol raw or fumes from my oil leaving it in clean condition !! Nice no oil milking.
 -Does the Dry-Sump tank with Vacuum pump setup work YES i was pleased as hell , well almost all issues solved ,but I’m never really that happy as it can always be better .
FYI: my Dry-Sump tank incorporates these standard items - oil inlet and outlet- tank breather outlet 1500w tank oil heater.
- MY added items are: oil level site tube, 1" I.D vacuum pump inlet, AN-8 oil pre-lube pump outlet, cow magnet holder, modified oil drain outlet, oil temp bung.
 
 - First setup went like this, Vacuum pump to Dry-Sump tank, Dry sump tank venting to remote breather, regulated with a GZ vacuum regulator valve.
 

Super basic (nice pulley Cameron!) and yes it worked very well, But i started having engine oil spitting out of the
Crankcase vacuum regulator valve (circle in yellow)

   - Time for data review, what i found was under high boost i would actually start losing crankcase vacuum and start going into positive pressure.
Oh know what to do.?
Step#1, change pulley sizes to start:
  You will probably notice there has been different pulley‘s in past photos, so it kind of goes like this, I started by switching to a higher volume GZ vacuum pump .which means it has the ability to pulley more volume sooner as well as longer .
Now the good Guys at GZ motorsports, super great to deal with. recommend a max pump RPM of  say 6000 rpm  but can spin higher for short times if needed.
So my CE lower pulley has a diameter of 3.25" so this is how it looks
3.25 with 5.5" pump pulley at 6500 rpm =3850 rpm
3.25 with 4.5" pump pulley at 6500 rpm =4700 rpm
So you can see i was not at the time getting anywhere close to the 6000 pump RPM .and max pump pull.
  Yep Cameron to the rescue and machined me a sweet 3.5" custom pulley .
3.25 with 3.5" pump pulley at 6500 rpm =6035 rpm
This made a massive change, spinning the GZ pump faster at engine idle around 900 rpm  would pull about 10 inches and in 4th gear ,6500 rpm , 16 lbs boost still be around 5 inches crankcase vacuum .

Not bad at all!!! i figured I have got it! But still would spit oil out of the case vacuum valve (FYI: the crankcase vacuum valve is just a controlled vacuum that opens at a set vacuum thus regulating max crankcase vacuum).
- after looking very closely at my data in between shift i could get a crankcase pressure spike to positive as well as during odd time of tuning a very excessive rich mixture ect it was
Easily possible to go positive pressure, hey add some cylinder and ring wear from real rich methanol mixture, equaling more blow-by , dialing in engine timing and  mixture etc did not help the positive crankcase pressure which resulted in oil spitting out the relief vacuum valve .SO?
What to do? Yep Nothing.  nature of the beast running a large cc boosted motor adding MFI, and burning Methanol = Normal ,BUT i learned something .help fine tune by  what ended up in the breather tank and add that to my overall tuning plan  , so if there is a lot of methanol in the breather tank Means, figured out why you’re not burning it , get it .burning fuel is power .


 
 
 

Version#2 – exactly the same as version#1  , Except  with the addition of a GZ motorsports crankcase pressure blow-off valve. Now this unit was originally designed to be used as a backup for engine failure, meaning say on a boosted motor you blow a piston you could then potentially pressurize the crankcase and in turn that would push all your engine oil up and out your valve cover breather, so this unit will hold 2 psi and if the pressure passes 2 psi opens and dumps into a tank with the min capacity of your engine total oil quantity, smart and nhra required in some classes .
  I purchased the Blow off valve and modified the spring to allow it to pop off the seat a hair over ½ psi and plumbed that to a larger 3 quart tank tucked up in the right side of the engine bay.
Now if at any time my motor see’s positive pressure the blow off valve will open releasing the pressure, into the tank .just have to test it.
Bingo at the Track and after every pass I would check my data ,there was ZERO positive crankcase pressure shown -- ,problem fixed and worked like a charm , time for the last and final modification .



Version #3 – what did I learn – no need for the vacuum control valve , the engine and vacuum system work perfect together so in the end the valve was only really controlling idle and light partial load so gone . Removed  the Blow off valve from the not best spot  fuel pump location and install it in better baffled location in place of the vacuum control valve. And made a nice little adapter that allowed me to “ T ” the blow off valve into the output line from the vacuum pump going into the Dry-Sump tank .


SO now you have it one last thing to add. I have tested and ran the car down the track WITHOUT the vacuum pump and just connected the vacuum pump oulet hose goin to the Dry-Sump tank directly to the alternator stand outlet and no problem , works just as good and Zero crankcase pressure ,the vacuum pump just is the icing on the cake
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 03:38:13 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #352 on: February 10, 2020, 07:18:25 PM »
Quest for the 9's list :
- WELL pretty simple just needed to make a few small engine changes ,LOL .
you can see there has always been a constant direction with everything slowly moved fwd
toward building and tuning a Old School turbo motor but adding a few tricks.over time this power plant  has taken more abuse than you could
ever imagine and has been very reliable and a consistent performer ,This engine is still capable of easily putting out another
75-100 hp but for the time being i will just fine tune the state of tune im at now, making it more efficient
and Finnish Dialing-In the details .
  There is more than just having a motor than can put out some jam there needs to be a balance and the whole car needs
to work together , it just takes time.
presently the WOK is undergoing some upgrades again and will bring those up later .
 But will look at the list and think about what to bring up next.

 

.Trans inspected and new synchros and 1.00 4th gear
.Turbo repaired and upgraded with a billet inlet wheel and new exhaust housing ,header pipe fabricated
.New camshaft ,shorter duration more lift
.Engine inspected and overhauled
.k800 valve spring inspected and installed and readjusted
.EGT probes installed
.New REV6 clutch in ,tested and adjusted
.New intake fabricated
.Drysump oiling , done previously


- replace 4th gear and at same time replace all synchros and inspect trans, test new torco transaxle fluid
- go through motor and make sure its solid
- replace valve springs and reset spring pressure
- install EGT temp probes
- modify fuel system for high speed lean out
- upgrade clutch system to rev6
- repair damaged turbo and discuss options
- perform options to turbo and upgrade inlet to billet wheel and eplace exhaust housing
- fabricate new exhaust outlet pipe
- fabricate new intake manifold
- clean and simplify engine wiring and pipework
- test new ECMS ,clutch management system focus on consistent low 60 foot times.
- rewire complete car electronics
- fabricate and wire completely new data logging system
- tune new fuel curve as per new EGT data and work on aggressive but safe tune
- replace frt and rear shocks
- replace rear torsion bars
- dry sump oil system
- vacuum pump
- MFI
- reset and alter alignment specs for new speed
- finish testing new night-stick select shifter
- replace camshaft and not because I wanted to but had to
- haul ass and go fast

this list will help me go through topics and can cross a few more off now
« Last Edit: February 10, 2020, 10:14:54 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #353 on: February 11, 2020, 01:40:11 PM »
 lets make it stable : stock ,slightly modified or really pushing it there are lessons for all here.

  There were many time at higher speed the WOK would wander usually to the right and sometimes quite abruptly.
I assumed I was just getting out of the groove and most of the time I could catch it slowly easy it back over .
 Remember Im traveling way over 130mph and accelerating quite fast at that point so an easy touch was required .
Sometimes it would work out ok and other times just not ,regardless it could be a tad hairy and or plain scary.
 So stability was defiantly high on my list of things to get handled .
 I don’t know exactly at what point things seamed to get a bit to loose for comfort but must admit it was starting to worry me as rate of acceleration was increasing fast .
  There is a lot to be said for seat of the pants , and this is what i would feel at times -launch rough bouncy ,- slipping sideways feeling, -pulling right while accelerating ,-
High speed wandering-,back end bouncy , - instability while accelerating hard .
 I started by watching and rewatched all my in car ,private and posted videos ,slowing them down and started breaking them down into groups and making notes as I went along.
GROUPS: seamed to keep falling into something like this:
  Burnout and stage — Launch —between shifts— after shift acceleration — high speed stability — and finally deceleration and off throttle .
I was amazed when I really focussed on 1 item at a time and picked it out multiple time over many videos .
  I guess the best way to do this is put up some videos of what I was seeing and then show what was done to correct the issues .
- Burnout
 This I have nailed down quite well . I played with 2 ways and this being my standard  , stop in water box , linloc frt wheels , pull up on staging brake - car in 2nd gear and bring revs up and dump the clutch , as soon as I would feel the car pushing fwd I would roll on more throttle and release lineloc and proceed up to staging area while keeping WOK in the groove . 2nd method was stop in water box , up on staging brake , 3rd gear , revs up and dump clutch and let car come out of water box on its own, stopped  this as there
Was no need , did not like backing up if I passed staging lights and 2 easy to miss the launch groove , looked cool but accomplished nothing .
 With the first method I could way easier control tire heat , works so stick with it .
Take a look , no issues there so onto the next group -LAUNCH-
   
 BURNOUT
« Last Edit: February 19, 2020, 03:59:45 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #354 on: February 20, 2020, 07:45:49 PM »
                 - LAUNCH-
   I have 2 great video clips to look at ,

    YEP , this is where it all seams to matters ,you have staged and set both double yellow bulbs ,nerves are high , you’re thinking about everything you need to do to make it happen , everyones watching ,cameras are ready and then its time .3 yellows flash and then Green lamp and go !!!!
    Well if you have it Dialed-In and everything goes as planned you will take off in great style and most of the time the balance of the pass goes just as smooth .
Unfortunately, more times than not , things just don’t go as well as you were dreaming they would  ,launch does not go as planned and the balance of the pass falls apart and its back to the trailer to think about it. .
Yep lived it 100’s of times , but glad to say I’m in the positive side more than in the past and have also figured out how to salvage a pass when the launch does not pan out as planned.
   When looking at both these YouTube videos open the link go to the settings in the lower right and SLOW it down to 1/2 speed or less and you will see
What I was focussing on .watch closely , the - launch - between shifts- acceleration after shift .
   This first video is everything going wrong and you need to keep watching it over and over focussing on the launch and 1-2 shift and acceleration.
What do I quickly notice ; back of car drops and plants hard,- power applied fast and keeps banging rear suspension of rear suspension stops ,frt end drops and lifts and drops — 1-2 shift ,back of car lifts and then as power is reapplied
Again bangs down onto the stops followed by a constant bouncing up/down cycling motion down the track .you can see where this sets the tone for things going poorly the rest of the pass.
LAUNCH WOK GOING BAD
   This second video ( thanks Ron Lummus snipped from his online shop tour YouTube video) is really good as well .
What do I see .obviously the car closest to you is getting it done , clutch ,tires and suspension are working together and the car plants and transfers weight nicely with just the right amount of wheel spin and accelerates away quickly.
  BUT!! Watch more closely the brown car in the other lane , hmmm seams to ring a bell .car plants hard , rear suspension is loading hard and unloading ,frt wheels drop and obvious no good weight transfer .
LAUNCH GOOD AND BAD
  Yep there is more , getting the launch together and just need to Finnish off with the top end stability issue and everything in between .
« Last Edit: February 20, 2020, 07:53:44 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #355 on: February 22, 2020, 05:14:09 PM »
                - ALL GOOD BUT , TOP END WANDER -
 
      Well let me think which way to go ,ok let’s use this video clip ,This video clip has it all . Some items previously talked about and ending with a bit of top end drift but,
More important it shows everything coming together !! - Burnout - staying in the groove - staging - launch —between shifts— after shift acceleration .
  Slow it down,  watch it and break it into the Groups I mentioned ,Things are coming together and it shows when you are willing to take all the steps , figure it out and put it all together good things can happen .
Later we can look at and discuss what individual changes were made from the earlier launch video example to get to this launch video example .
  Burnout and stage smooth , launch very smooth and controlled and rear suspension working very well , rear suspension not banging down hard against stops , shifts controlled with no crazy up and down motion, no more excessive suspension
Up and down oscillation down the track — BUT,  again watch at the end for the slight wander to the right !!

      Some notes on this clip :
#1— when the camera pans to the engine about 7 sec mark ,pause it and you can get a real good shot of the vacuum hose layout previously discussed.
#2 — A little inside scoop on this video ,and will bring it up later on as well as its a topic upon itself ,this was the 3rd pass of the day ,and also the first time I was using a prototype shifter I just bolted in .
I have been helping my Good friend , Steve Phillips ,owner of Wolfgang international -    https://wolfgangint.com        taking his Nightstick shifter to a new crazy level .im so excited but more later and spy shots .
#3 — As mentioned this was the 3rd pass with the main focus on working on my ECMS controller and also the first time I have run with the deckled on in along time , never opened it once and only changes made after the first 2 passes were rear shock adjustment and from my drivers seat Clutch management settings on my ECMS controller ,very cool —
#4 — fun facts , who needs wheelie bars when you can just use your race bullet muffler

Quick plug - the video clip was taken from a super nice guy we met at the track he sent me some links and personal videos he has taken
This is a link for a great video he put together that day ,check out all his stuff , nice someone takes the time to do cool things these days .     

 WOK 1.404 REVIEWED

I think I mighty of posted this up before , but fun video as its the inside shot of the exact run , you can see the use of the staging brake and count the gears as we go .
Watch the steering wheel and you can see in 4th im just slightly holding a tad more pressure to the left

 INSIDE VIEW 1.404 REVIEWED





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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #356 on: February 25, 2020, 11:00:24 PM »
 

                          Burnout and stage — Launch —between shifts— after shift acceleration — high speed stability — and finally deceleration and off throttle .
    Well ,we have reviewed all 6 groups, looked at the issues .Got a hair off track but, Where did it start and what did I do moving forward.
One last video clip and then it begins . This is one of the  runs before I started with upgrades , clutch system ECMS was operating 100% bang on allowing for a very smooth and controlled launch.
But look close , suspension was still squatting hard and bouncing down the track ,shifting was slow but overall not bad .
   At this time I was running , 28mm torsion bars , QA1 dual adjustable rear shocks ,competition engineering 3 way adjustable frt shocks  and a Kennedy dual disc clutch with a stage#1pressure plate
 as well as my first version ECMS clutch management controller and stk shifter .
                    KENNEDY DUAL DISC LAUNCH  link fixed now

    So what did I change and why ?,and then how did it set me back ?and how did we move fwd going a step at a time .?
First was replacement of the clutch from the Kennedy dual disc to the Ron Lummus REV6 dual disc ,why?
    The Kennedy was so smooth on take off and took more abuse than I could throw at it as well as held all the power I was putting at it But, because of disc weight I needed to shift way slower to
Allow the synchros to work smoothly but, even with that they eventually required replacement due to warping .
    So I was kind of thinking that I would be able to accomplish a lot more with the Clutch swap to the REV6 .
I was figuring I would still have a very smooth launch with the REV6 , shift speed could now increase due to the small diameter of the discs which would help by not allowing vehicle to unload and reload so much between gears, and this should also
Help with high speed stability as the faster shifts again will not allow the suspension to fully unload in the higher gears as well hopefully resulting in stability .
   Yes made total sense to me but ya ,NO.
2 steps fwd 1 step back .yes the design of the clutch allowed for way faster shifting ,and yes did help settle the car in-between shifts and then accelerating ,and very important held the power ,so on the right track there !!
But as we seen earlier , the launch went from smooth to very aggressive.
   All data sent to Ron Lummus for review . Ron and myself discussed many options and agreed 1 step at a time approach also my ECMS was disconnected as requested earlier  .next step will be to allow more initial clutch slip and monitor holding power and stiffen back of car to take the shock of launch and better control weight of car .
Engine pulled out for clutch adjustment and reset for more initial slip on launch and at the same time swap the 28mm torsion bars for 30mm torsion bars .
  Now after resetting ride height and engine with adjusted clutch back in it was time to retest .clutch was smoother and I did raise RPM as well which added some more needed clutch and tire spin .the 30mm bars made a big difference
As the car just did not bottom so quickly ,the 30mm bars took more of the load than I thought .BUT something else became even worse .even with my QA1 shocks set to max 32 clicks on compression and rebound they could
Not control the weight of the car as well as control the new 30mm bars .Ron sent me to his shock expert in SoCal for advice and looks like I was at the limit , YEP QA1 Shocks are not revalvable and I needed 25% min more .So swapped out the
Shocks to a set of Rons purpose builds dual adjustable Strange engineering shocks ,and yes these are 100% revalvable to what ever you want ,but Ron has already put the work into them so they are dam close for a VW.
 8 clicks each compression and rebound and I’m at 6 clicks , each click is quite allot firmer .
Now one other thing I had forgotten to mention is I did replace the frt shocks earlier in the year to a set of QA1 dual adjustable in the frt .these are great and work excellent, more on those later .
  SO ! Now we are back to this video , 3rd pass out at mission .Clutch readjusted , RPM up 500 , new shocks installed and adjust firmer to 6 clicks , tire pressures at 16 psi , Night stick shifter installed and vola that all it took .
Easy huh , now when you watch the video you can see the suspension /WOK is calmer between shifts and down the track , Rons shock really helped out Huge !!
WOK 1.404 REVIEWED[/

time for some pictures , shocks , bars , clutch already done and alignment jigs etc
« Last Edit: February 26, 2020, 03:08:42 PM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #357 on: March 04, 2020, 07:28:39 PM »
    Stability
    When you experience any form of instability it can scare the hell out of you But ,when you can drive with one hand on the wheel over 140 mph while accelerating ,life is good !! Very good !
It really comes down to a few things ,. Weight distribution , wheel alignment and suspension , ok and some solid nerves. The best way to start is with your wheel alignment and you can move fwd from there .
Im going to use some old and new photos and information  and examples as it flows better that way .
  You gotta know this to start .
  *frt TOE-IN decreases as vehicle frt raises-goodish !!!
 *frt CASTER caster increases as vehicle frt raises-very good !!! whats safe 3-4 deg =80 mph /5-6 =90mph/7-8 =100mph the more the better.
 *frt CAMBER no change through suspension range-excellent !!
 * Rear swing -axle toe in increases with suspension squat and so does negative camber , with a IRS the same but not as drastic.

So where do you start , best thing to do is get your alignment specs , can you do this at home ,Yes 100% it can be done at home . or 100% at a shop but ,you still need to know what’s going on instead of taking someones word for it .
   I started with making some new equipment for home alignment adjustment ,the tools work better than I thought and I can set it up and get camber and toe readings at either the front or rear wheels in under 5 min tops .
now the only thing is it only gives total toe but we can look at how to split that between sides later .
   Now as I said earlier I replaced the rear torsion bars from 28mm up to 30 mm ( 28mm bars for sale !!!)  which meant I had to semi pull my rear suspension apart .its garage time so pull out the measuring tape now .
Before the car was put on 4 jack stands I measured from the bottom rear bolt of the spring plate retainer to the floor on both sides  , then with the car up on the 4 jack stands and the jack under the rear hub of each rear wheel I jacked up until the car just started to lift
Off the jack stand , that was the point the 28mm bar was supporting the vehicle weight ,measure from ,in this case lower shock mount to floor and note that measurement down ,now replace the torsion bars and you now have
Your 2 measurements to put things back too , the support weight point and the ride height .very simple . 30mm bars in and done !
   I use solid spring plate retainers and modified adjustable spring plates ,Solid plate retainers allow for now control arm movement ,excellent . And modified the adjustable spring plates by moving the adjusters forward for better tire clearance .adjustable spring plates are key later on not just for adjusting ride height but also weight distribution.
pics shows suspension down travel limiters, 30mm torsion bar, solid spring plate retainers and modified adjustable spring plates .and a mission raceway mess


WOK back on 4 wheels ,supporting weight and ride height reset and checked , Now TIME to installed my super trick alignment tools, there made from 3/4 square tubing and custom made to fit 15” rims and of course I made sure its 100% square as I tigged it together . It hangs on the top lip of the rim and works on the 3 point system to keep it square .
Also I made a couple of special retainning nuts that thread onto my wheel studs and simply use rope or zap straps to secure the jig securely to the rim .
   I use a lee valley magnetic base angle gauge stick it to the side of my alignment tool and zero it horizontal then move the lee valley tool to the outside position for camber reading .Simple.
There are 2 slots cut in the lower cross tubing which for your info is the width of my rear tires, 26” that allows for the 2 tape measures to slide through . So you can see now . Hang the jigs and square them , connect 2 tape measures take toe and camber readings = less than 5 min ,sweet ! The dam tool works .stupid simple . Its cool to see while you say jack the frt or rear of the car up or down and watch the tape measures move while watching the measurements change , that’s learning what’s going on with your toe readings.



Hey tried the frt next wow under 5 min and have my results there as well , yes you can calculate caster on the frt but worry about that later .


My trick is to use green masking tape on the floor and mark my numbers right there ,yep I will forget otherwise .
   Now I have frt and rear camber and toe readings . what did I find ?
Rear suspension measured showed 1/8 total toe , but my camber on the left rear wheel was way more positive than the right rear .?
Also my frt suspension total toe was 1/8” total , caster I don’t need to worry about as it was already known but my left frt camber was way out .?
 So far nothing really sticking out for my high speed wander but.
Back up onto the jack stands for a camber inspection . i put the jack under each rear wheel and lifted it to my ride height and installed a bigger wedge under my suspension limiters to keep each rear wheel while up in the air at ride height and
simply used the lee valley angle gauge on the inside of the brake disc to double check camber measurements I previously took with my alignment tool ,


Now my suspension is a one of and it has the ability to simply adjust camber and toe-in quite simply.
By either  turning my inner heim joint or sliding it up and down in the grooved slot , by fluke it works out that 1 turn of the heim joint is 1/16” toe adjustment in or out .
   Always work with the worst side and in this case I needed to slide the left heim joint down to give me less positive camber .


I adjusted this in a few ways .pre-checked the camber at full squat , ride height and full lift . It works out the suspension is really unique and
Does not have major camber change through its complete range from full lift to full squat but more important is its a ZERO camber for the most part .with the car fully lifted in the rear it max around +0.7 of a deg and at ride height + 0.07 deg .nothing.
I quickly while the car was in the air reconnected my alignment tools , set suspension to ride height and hey still 1/8” Toe-In
FRT left wheel , rim off and inspected , NO adjustment for camber left ,now im not sure if the spindle took damage at some point ,yes cheap Chinese drop spindles or they are just crap , I think they are crap .but I do have a set of the onset upper ball joint
Camber adjusters , may just give that a go and see what happens before a buy another set of spindles
     Back on the GROUND and time to recheck frt and rear alignment again, Frt no change but rear camber NOW excellent and toe still 1/8” ,well this is not really any reason for wander but yes it maybe part of it and for sure every correction HELPS !!
NOW HOW do you split the TOE -IN evenly between sides , hey I can have 1/8” toe in but that might mean left wheel has 0 toe in and right wheel has 1/8” toe in ,still 1/8 total toe but not even , that can cause a pull or push .
SO time to think outa the box .I hung a plumb bob from my frt beam centre grub screw and marked the floor , did the same at the rear by fitting a plug into the centre hole in the centre of the pan and marked the floor .then stretched a thing string between the 2 points .
Bang instant centre of car ,So back on with the alignment tools and just measured from the front of each bar to the string ,
Found this pick , you can easily see the frt centre beam grub screw and the factory pan centering hole at the rear .


VERY interesting have to keep it a secrets until im at the shop using the hunter aligner ,now will see if im any good .
Photos ,data, scales here we come




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #358 on: March 04, 2020, 08:13:11 PM »
  Drove the WOK to the shop ,car felt good and always fun and put it up onto the Hunter alignment rack , the specs I have are NOT stk VW but slightly modified for my vehicle .but numbers are numbers .
So drum roll , now I can see how close my home alignment was , WELL to say the least im dam good !!!!
Lets look as how she sits
 Total toe frt and rear 1/8” , frt caster is always 9+ deg positive and will never change and rear camber just as I set it a hair positive camber at 0.08 deg positive camber
The front TOE-IN was bang on at 1/16” per side but you can see my REAR toe in was slightly off , yes total TOE was 1/8” but not even per side ,
  So having these readings now allows me to go home and simply extend the left rear heim joint 1 turn out to give 1/16” toe in and wind the right rear heim joint in 1 turn decreasing the TOE to 1/16”
For the same total of 1/8” total but now even , Get it .


   well is the WOK fixed , nope im never happy , this is just the car sitting level not moving or under load . I know what needs to be done .but lets look at a few shot I took while on the rack doing some testing .
Focus is only at front here , look closely at the TOE-IN and caster .
     Just as I said caster has increased as suspension raises — EXCELLENT but what happened to my TOE-IN — well its gone !!
You can see I have taken some measurements for at home later , those represent from the bottom of the fender lip to the front wheel contact point dead centre .
So again this is stationary with no load !! But does show while accelerating and the rear drops a bit and the frt lifts what happens . Hit a bump add some more road force of 140 mph and its most likely
Driving the frt wheels to a dangerous TOE-OUT ,


   Well we know the frt TOE needs adjustment and the rear TOE needed help at ride height but what happens to the rear when I slow shift and the back of the car lifts up ,
Or more important at the end of the track on decele . So frt back down and time to jack rear of car up till it hits the limiter stops.
You can see the rear camber increases to 0.70 positive camber , hey not bad less than 1 deg positive ,but look at the toe .
Both the left and right sides lost 1/16” toe in , not bad at all very small change in toe , camber is excellent and we know we still need a TOE-IN adjustment


    So what did I do , The rear TOE Adjustment I need to do at home as its allot of work but the frt was easy , readjusted the frt TOE-IN to 1/8” per side and almost changing to 3/16” per side , and now even with the car lifted in the frt The car stayed at Min 1/16” TOE-IN , SWEET .
The rear now was easy , since I new the right side already had 1/8” toe in and at full lift it only went to 1/16” toe in its just a matter of adjusting the left rear heim joint out 2 turns to readjust the left rear toe to positive 1/8” TOE-IN .now I don’t have to worry here as the rear suspension squats it gains negative camber and TOE-IN
  At the shop you can see my newly set frt TOE-IN and with a bit of trickery drove the left rear fwd for testing purposes , I like the numbers now .


   I hope you can see what’s happened and why I was getting instability and wander , its more than just a flat level setting ,you need to put the chassis through its ranges and see what numbers change .
IS it stable , hey im going 140mph plus with 1 hand on the wheel , so ill say ya im happy ,job done. Well almost time for the scales.

Basic specs for me at ride height , frt toe between 1/4-3/8” Toe-in, frt camber will be 0-0.5 deg positive , rear camber at ride height a hair over 0 deg and toe at 1/4” toe in
 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2020, 06:26:33 AM by jim martin »




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Offline jim martin

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Re: Jim Martin
« Reply #359 on: March 15, 2020, 10:46:15 AM »
i copied this over from years ago from one of my favorite old sites ( ultimate air cooled ) used to be great ,not so much anymore but,
this was a topic from many years ago but its a good read with some great info


jim martin

my poor car is gutted but i hope to start getting it together very soon .i have access to a 4 pad car scale .I'm very worried about weight up frt this time and think i may need to transfer some up there .i have a few things that could be relocated .wondering if anyone has done a 4 corner balance and would mind not sharing some data with me ,it would be a big help as i want to remain stable and not over or under weighted at one end .info could be posted here or in private if you want to keep your results a little more guarded i can appreciate that as well .
thanks , Jim

Bad Bug Two
as far as where you want the weight, I am not as sure on that as some things that you need to consider (You may already know!)....

Make sure that when you weigh it the scales are all level to each other. There is a couple of methods to do this, but if they are not on the same plane, the car may inadvertently shift its weight to the lower scale(s). Also, make sure the car is race ready on its weight.... fuel, tire pressures, you (with all safety gear), etc....

By the way, I just weighed my race bug last week and with me in it, it is right at 1750lbs total. (I don't recall individual weights, because I was not concerned with that at this point.)

Good luck and hopefully someone else can chime in with more useful info!

Tom Simon
others may disagree, but I found a 4 scale check and adjustment to be key in car set up. Namely, getting fore and aft weights in the ball park, then getting the cross weights about right.

My experience has been with only two cars, and both handled great when finished. I ended up with 1/3 weight up front to 2/3 weight on the rear of one car. Then 'square up' the cross weights, meaning with me and my gear in the car, the front tires should each be carrying 1/6th of the total weight, the rear tires should each be carrying 1/3rd of the total weight.

If you are class racing, build a light car then put lead weights where you want it. But most guys aren't building a class car.

If you are rebuilding the car, and you have a choice, keeping/moving the battery to the passenger side, same with the fuel cell, ignition box, breather tank, etc can help offset the weight of the driver.

Before you scale, make sure the front end is aligned, tires pressures are set, driver id in the car, fuel, oil, ready to race.

Small changes to the ride height or preload of the rear torsion bars, by turning the set screws on the aftermarket spring plates is about the easiest way to change corner or cross weight readings. Crank on the passenger rear torsion set screw and the weight of the driver's side front also increases. I hope that helps

slalombuggy
haven't set up cars for straight line racing, but one thing we want in autocross and road racing is to keep all weight as low as possible and as said by Tom, try to offset as much as possible to the passenger side to compensate for drivers weight. Having the ride height set where it will be is critical in scaling a car. Any changes in that area will mean re-scaling the car.


 jim martin

thanks for the info .I'm looking fwd to see what i will find out once the wheels hit the ground again .
anyone has some input let me know I'm taking safety very serious this year and everbit helps


 jim martin

always like to follow up .
car on the scales ,with me in it, helmet on lap and suite under seat. 3 gallons fuel .

 


car without driver, weight 1727 lbs
 


with driver 1911 lbs
 

only thing to add is my safecraft fire suppression system . i was very surprised to see the
left frt lighter than the right frt ,especially with me on that side .numbers look good
and happy to see a 35/65 split

MagOO

Well, with a little judicous finagling, you should be able to scale it a little better than that. it may help if you can mount the snuff kit close to the battery tray area..Also do a search here on Tony Klink's PRO/GAS car session with the 4 corner..

Jabber Jaws

The drivers side torsion bar has more preload than the passenger side. The drivers side MAY have too much OR the passenger side MAY have too little. Measure the rear camber and ride height to determine which side needs adjusting.

Nick Wharton

Jabber Jaws said:
The drivers side torsion bar has more preload than the passenger side. The drivers side MAY have too much OR the passenger side MAY have too little. Measure the rear camber and ride height to determine which side needs adjusting.
you beat me to it. I was thinking the same thing. Check ride height loaded, unloaded, before and after

 jim martin

i see what you are saying .by adjusting the right rear torsion firmer it will basically push/apply more weight to the right rear and in doing so will force more pressure to the left frt
 

Jabber Jaws

jim martin said:
i see what you are saying .by adjusting the right rear torsion firmer it will basically push/apply more weight to the right rear and in doing so will force more pressure to the left frt
Exactly, but you may find by investigating camber and ride height that LOWERING the left rear is the way to go. If it is swing axle camber will be your main factor. You want both wheels to have the same camber loaded. When you think you are done raise the front about 10 inches and see what happens in the back with weights and camber, this will give you an idea where to "shift weight" in the car and if your rear torsions are close to equal strength.

Tom Simon


jim martin said:
always like to follow up .
car on the scales ,with me in it, helmet on lap and suite under seat. 3 gallons fuel .
numbers look good and happy to see a 35/65 split
If I were doing the set up, I would try to get closer than that. I would almost ignore weight without driver and gear. It's interesting, but has little bearing on how the car will drive down track. Make sure caster and camber are set, tire pressures are set with a good gauge. Only then will your scales work correctly.

If I had them, I'd tighten the passenger (right) rear springplate adjuster screw, to add more pre-load to the right rear. If I had no adjustable spring plates, I'd take the springplate off and carefully re-index both inner and outer splines to yield a little more pre-load on the right rear. As was mentioned, increasing right-rear pre-load will always increase load on the left front, at the same time. It's very similar to shimming up the short leg of a table sitting on an uneven surface. Two legs are carrying all the weight, the other two 'short legs' are wobbling. You only shim one of the two legs, yet when finished, both legs are now carrying weight.

The goal is to make the left front and rear, and the right front and rear percentages equal, regardless of left side and right side weight (which you can't do anything about at this point, short of adding lead bars, which I can't recommend for these purposes).

Example: look at your total left side weight, and total right side weight with driver. Right side total weight, right front 342 + right rear 559 = 901lbs. Left side total weight, left front 329 + left rear 640 = 1011lbs. Unless you move the driver toward the tunnel 6", the left and right weight distribution will remain the same, driver's side is 100lbs heavier. For corner weighting purposes, let's assume you can't/won't change that fact.

Typically the left of a VW's driver's side of the car will have a higher combined front and rear weight total, so your driver's side being heavier than the passenger side is typical.

What you can do, to make the car go straight and handle great, is to get your front and rear percentages closer.

Example: as the car sits, your front/rear percentages are 35/65, which is fine. What is off, and can be fixed, is the right rear currently carries only 62% of the right side's total weight, and the left rear carries 67% of the left side's total weight. Make sense?

To fix this on your car, increase right rear preload to where the scale reads about 585lbs, the left rear should read about 656lbs. These are approximate, because the front and rear percentages usually change slightly as you increase or decrease pre-load. This is a little bit 'trial and error' so be patient, keep notes, use a calculator, and keep in mind that the goal is to have the 'corner's' carrying the right percentages of weight.

Jeff Lovell

unhook your shocks. I don't know your shock valving, so it might not make too much difference. but normally you should un hook the bottom of the shocks

Jeff Lovell


im sure you know this but make sure you bounce the car real good on all four corners , front back , side to side.


Tim Haugen

Something I have been doing to check my car is chassis tweak test.
We did this on on road and off road rc cars and have adapted it to real cars. You need to find a place on your car that is level side to side to place a 2’ level or similar on the chassis. Then you need to place the car on a level surface you may need to use shims under the tires to achieve this. This is critical, I use a 12’ level to achieve this. After you have the car on a leveled surface, get the weight in the car where it belongs, driver gas etc. Next you need to find a place to lift the car perfectly centered side to side for the front and back respectfully. Get a floor jack with a piece of angle iron place it on the jack with the triangle pointed up. Roll the jack under the car place the point of the angle perfectly on the point you located to be center. Lift one end of the car (with weight in) and watch the level. If the car is perfect it will keep level if not it will tell you what side needs adjusted. Remember to bounce the car once lifted as Jeff suggested. The next thing to check is your droop ( the amount the wheels drop when that end is lifted) If the chassis level shows the car to be level the droop should be the same. If not, you need to address the droop situation also. Scales don’t show this and it is critical to the cars balance. Redo for the other end and recheck. If done correctly you will notice how much better the car will launch and drive. I have done this to all the cars I set up and it is blatant when you drive them, there much better. I have checked my work against scales and really was not surprised at how well this works as the scales showed it.


 jim martin

thanks , i completely understand and appreciate everyones input .Tom your calculations examples are excellent .
alignment is finished and rear is custom IRS with very little camber change through range of motion and in the area its sitting there would be almost Nil if i raise it or lower it 3/4 ".spring plates are adjustable left and right and all 4 corners are qa1 dual adjustable shocks .i did not recheck pressure in the tires and i now see how that can effect things .this was my first shot on the scales and will be playing with it again soon .vehicle is apart as the tranny needed a quick fix .also will level all the scales on the floor and make sure there all at the same height . also will let the shocks hang as suggested .
i would say my only adjustments at this point in which i have to play with are .removal of the steel engine deck lid , muffler , and positioning of my 5 lb safecraft bottle ,frt beam centre adjusters and of course left and right rear torsion bar adjustments .





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