Author Topic: Wheel alignment - Barely keep car on road (Read 7454 times)

Jeremy · « **on:** May 14, 2013, 01:19:00 PM »

Sorry long post. Since I've had my beetle back on the road it has had a problem with wandering all over the road. I keep the steering wheel straight and the car would start to veer one way so I would compensate slightly and half a second later off in the other direction it would go. Seemed to have play in the front end. The tie rod ends looked original so over the winter I decided to replace all four of them. While I had it apart I reamed my spindles and flipped the outer tie rod ends. I also added a steering damper. Set the toe in at 1/8" and off I went. Well it's fucking worse than it was before the mods. It's all over the road. So I check the back wheels and set them for 1/8" toe out like I've read, adjusted the play in the steering box with the screw on top of the box and off I went again. Same problem. Seems like any variation in the road sends it off in one direction or the other almost violently. I realize it probably needs a professional alignment but something else seems wrong with it. Could the steering box be fucked? Seems the worst when steering is centered. Maybe the worm gear has worn out in that position? My steering box doesn't seem to have the axial adjustment on the end of the shaft. Just a round plug. No big jamb nut or funny inset bolt. Any ideas? Not too fun to drive right now.

'59 beetle
4" narrowed beam
flipped tie rods
steering damper
1 set of caster shims
IRS rear suspension

owdlvr · « **Reply #1 on:** May 14, 2013, 02:11:23 PM »

tires and size?

Richard Kuczko · « **Reply #2 on:** May 14, 2013, 07:09:25 PM »

My wife's car had the exact same problem with her 59 beetle. I had Bruce from dvkk do most of the work but she went from corked tires to radials. Steering alignment and I know it sounds weird but I made sure that all grease nipples are done....before she could barely stay on the road like u going 50 miles a hour. And just yesterday she was laughing about how she was going 70 and she didn't even notice...

Jeremy · « **Reply #3 on:** May 14, 2013, 09:13:35 PM »

Continental ContiPro's all around. Rear tires are 205-60-16, fronts are 175-55-15. Probably not the best ratio but not uncommon.

I think I've narrowed it down to the steering box as being the major problem. The new steering coupler seems to flex quite a bit so for experiment sake I put in one of those red urethane ones I had around and that stiffened up things a bit but the wandring is still there. I think the new rubber coupler is flexing because i've got the steering box adjustment so tight just to take up the play in the steering wheel.

Any other ideas guys?

Chris · « **Reply #4 on:** May 14, 2013, 09:16:50 PM »

get it over to dales alignment

Jeremy · « **Reply #5 on:** May 14, 2013, 09:42:12 PM »

I figured I'd get it there eventually. Just need to get it safe enough to drive it there.

Going by his website it seems like it might be caster. Does any one run two sets of shims?

owdlvr · « **Reply #6 on:** May 14, 2013, 11:09:54 PM »

I ran no shims on my '69 for snappier handling, and didn't have those issues.

I would definitely start with a visit to Dale's.

-Dave

Hansk · « **Reply #7 on:** May 16, 2013, 12:29:21 AM »

Long story short , my fastback was the same way , extream unpredictable left and right pull. I do my own algnments at home and found you can not set the toe with an empty car. Once I got in ,the toe changed a lot , even more if my son got in too. From 1/8" toe in to almost 1/2" toe out.
Set the toe with like 400 lbs and a full tank of gas in the car.

Jeremy · « **Reply #8 on:** May 21, 2013, 10:34:04 AM »

So I took the steering box out and rebuilt it over the weekend. Pretty simple device really. Seems much better but not perfect. Probably needs a new steering box then a visit to Dales.

bwaz · « **Reply #9 on:** May 21, 2013, 11:24:05 AM »

other than new seals, what can be rebuilt on them? Is the worm gear worn or damaged the main issue that causes problems?

Jeremy · « **Reply #10 on:** May 21, 2013, 12:14:22 PM »

Your right Brian. Not much to rebuild. I should say took apart and inspected. The worm gear didn't look to worn and everthing seemed tight after I re assembled it on my bench. When I re installed it, the steering wheel play was excessive and could only be taken out with the adjustment screw on top of the box. By the time I got it with acceptable play the steering is pretty tight. Might see if I can round up another steering box to try.

buggy1 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 23, 2013, 06:56:03 AM »

Did you measure the camber of the torsion arms? I had the same problem when I put my front end together on my Baja. The handling sounded about the same as yours, once I set it up properly it handled like a dream.
Good luck,
Andy

Jeremy · « **Reply #12 on:** May 23, 2013, 11:43:42 AM »

Do you mean adding or subtracting shims to get the camber right? I did when I first put the car together. Maybe I should check that again.

bwaz · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2013, 02:59:47 PM »

a good post about steering box rebuilds.. i see it in my future!

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=155323&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=260

Hansk · « **Reply #14 on:** September 30, 2013, 10:31:46 AM »

OK so I've learned a new word from the internet ...... " Tramlining " where the car wants to follow every rut and groove on the road. It seems to be a huge problem on any car that has - wide , low profile , stiff side wall performance type tires . If the car also has any suspension or alignment or wheel off set issues or is light weight , its even worse. People talk about feeling like they can barely keep their new bmw's on a rough or rutted road because of the tires they have on. They say that all tires will try to follow ruts and grooves and irregularities in the road but these types of tires will not absorb it and will transfer it to the wheel and steer the car . Big tall soft cheep tires apparently absorb all or most of this and you don't feel it. I am now convinced that this is what we are dealing with. Apparently a little extra toe in may help a little but sounds like it really comes down to the tires.

Bruce · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2013, 06:20:10 PM »

ALthough I have never heard of the term Hans talks about, I can confirm it exists. My car does it BADLY. I always thought it was due to the narrow track of a Beetle, made worse by a narrowed beam.

Hansk · « **Reply #16 on:** October 25, 2013, 11:48:04 AM »

My car does it BADLY. I always thought it was due to the narrow track of a Beetle, made worse by a narrowed beam.
[/quote]

Bruce I'm sure those are factors in the problem. The wide flat tread surface of the tire is rolling on a non flat variable angle surface . The short stiff side wall wont let the tire conform to the surface so it rides on edge and is being forced by the angle one way or the other and both front tires are doing this fighting each other. Our narrow tracks (and light weight) make it worse because we never fit in to the normal ruts on the road. Add in a little play in the steering box and any other issues and it gets scary.

The other day I remembered I had work done on the front wheels earlier this year and I never rechecked the air pressure . I found they had inflated them to 36psi so I dropped it down to 18psi . That improved it so that now I feel like I can drive down the 99 with one hand. It still pulls left and right etc and changing lanes may require two hands sometimes but its a lot better and the steering also wants to return to center much better . BTW I have 195/50/15s with 7" rims on the front of the fastback

I see that Jeremy is running 175/55's on the front so I'm thinking they are the source of His problem .

Jeremy · « **Reply #17 on:** October 25, 2013, 02:01:13 PM »

Great info Hans. Sound exactly what I am fighting. Going to try and let some air out of the tires and see if that makes a difference.

getgeoff · « **Reply #18 on:** December 01, 2013, 04:47:10 PM »

I installed a 4 inch narrow beam with the poly bushings and flipped the outer tierods and adjusted the steering box abit. The car handled bad and I don't know if its the fact the beam is narrowed or that the steering box needs better adjusting. If it's too tight then any input will make it dart. I did install caster shims but that is really for cars that have a stock rear height and a lowered front. I am taking out the poly beam and installing a german beam with needle bearings but still a four inch narrow and a new sterring box. I hope that this will be a better driver as I hated it before. I did take the car to an alignment place and the rear was bang on cause I thought it was out too but that was not the case. With your problem I would look into getting a new steering box and make sure that your trailing arms dont bind and move smoothly thru out. Maybe the flipped tierods cause too much change in toein when the suspension moves or with different loads?

Bruce · « **Reply #19 on:** December 05, 2013, 06:15:58 PM »

Quote from: getgeoff on December 01, 2013, 04:47:10 PM

. I did install caster shims but that is really for cars that have a stock rear height and a lowered front.

Not true. If you lower the car all around, the two front control arms still alter the position of the link pins removing caster. You need the shims.

Hansk · « **Reply #20 on:** December 05, 2013, 09:21:04 PM »

Getgeoff , what size tires and rims you have on the front?

getgeoff · « **Reply #21 on:** December 11, 2013, 08:05:34 AM »

I am running 4 1/2 inch wide BRM with 145/65/15 tires on the front. After doing some more reading about this problem of twitchy steering on a lowered car I feel that not only do I but I feel your problem can be corrected with some thicker caster shims. Read the Gene Berg arcticle about them and what he suggested is to measure the caster and add the proper shim thickness and even double up if nessary. When you lower the frt end you actually tip the beam forward which reduces camber and cause great slow speed steering but twitchy steering at higher speeds. Give it a try as those shims are fairly cheap and by making your car handle 100 % better would be priceless.