AirSpeed VW Community Forums
General Forums => Air Speed Lounge => Topic started by: James Buchan on July 22, 2004, 09:48:54 PM
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Hey everyone, as you all know I work at the Vancouver Shipyards. And you may have also heard in the news lately that the BC Ferries Corp. is in the process of tendering 3 \"C\" class ferries to overseas shipyards in places such as Germany/Norway etc...
A \"C\" class ferry would be one of the larger vessels that you would see in the fleet, I'm sure you have all been aboard the \"Spirit of Vancouver\" or the \"Spirit of Vancouver Island\" as they are the largest in the fleet and service the major routes. These are the size of the new ones to be built, and they measure roughly 550' long.
You can have a look at them here, http://www.bcferries.com/about/fleet/ (http://www.bcferries.com/about/fleet/) also note that all the vessels in the fleet have been built here in BC.
So now you ask what the heck am I getting at? Well think about the amount of money one of those must be worth to build. That money spent out of country would be gone with no return other than a ferry in our waters.
But if that ferry was to be built here in BC that money would multiply into many positive things for our economy due to the amount of people it would employee to build. Those people having steady income for a number of years would contribute taxes. And those people would in turn spend that money in our economy helping other surrounding businesses. On top of this suppliers of all types would benefit as they would be the ones supplying the steel,wood,welding equipement etc... for these vessels.
So you can see that this is not a small thing for our economy to loose, it would benefit alot of British Columbians.
So what I ask you do is follow the link I have posted at the bottom of this thread, read the info there and then click on the \"How you can Help\" link on the left of the page and send your MLA an email requesting they look into this.
Here is the link: http://www.bcshipyardworkers.com/index.html (http://www.bcshipyardworkers.com/index.html)
Sorry this is so long, I am just getting tired of things like this happening and our \"Government\" sitting back on their asses and not protecting us from it.
Thanks.
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Done! :rockon:
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Do we still have the fast-ferries docked in Richmond?? or were they sold for pennies on the dollar?? granted the BC economy could use help, but I seem to remember the last ferry build we all payed dearly for. my $.02,
Matt
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The fast ferries were purchased by the builder - the company I work for. They are tied up in North Van.
Under the NDP there was a deal to sell them and lease them for a decent price, this deal was passed on to the liberals when they came in. And as like everything Gordo screwed that up.
These ferries are just regular type vessels. They will be replacing fleet that is in need of retirement.
The fast ferries didn't \"work\" because of sniveling residents along the shores of vancouver that complained about the wake they created.
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good point matt.
i dont mean to rock the boat (no pun intended), but i believe that there was more than just the problem of the fast ferries creating a large wake.
didnt the projected cost to build them double or triple by the time they were finished? didnt the company that was paid to build them end up buying them for a 1/4 of the cost of their actual value? didnt they spend more time dry-docked, getting repaired, than actually running their routes? they werent really that \"fast\" were they? i seem to recall that they only cut 10-20 minutes (on a good day) off the normal crossing time. the comfort factor was quite poor as well. steep staircases and a very small outer deck. all in all, the whole \"fast ferry fiasco\" left a pretty sour taste in the mouths of local residents and taxpayers. and that rep will be hard to get rid of and it will be a hard sell to get the people of bc to believe that a ferry can be built here, properly and within budget.
i'm not pointing fingers or placing blame. i mean absolutely no disrespect to you james, or the company you work for. i'm just voicing my opinion. ;)
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James In spite of your politics and mine being different there is \"NO WAY\" those jobs should leave this province. This is a mistake that need to be changed. My MLA has received my message. Thanks for making it so easy to do.Let's just hope they will listen.Wayne
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Yes we wastesd millions building the fast Ferries...Yes they were a joke... However the millions wasted were in our own province....Now had NDP paid for these ferries say from Norway then it would have been millions wasted out of our country. I think what James is saying is... If we are going to buy the new Ferries anyways ( Cuz we have no say) Why not have them made here. keeping the money in BC rather than over seas... The fast ferries were not a bust because of builder, they were a bust because of design flaws... and we took those designs from another country. Obviously if I built those fast ferries and I had the opprtunity to buy them back at 1/4 of the price I would also ,you would be dumb not to. It's not the builders fault that our government ( No matter who is in power) could not seem to handle this right. I will make no money's off this build, I even dont like to represent unions, However if we are going to spend this money lets keep it in BC. We are going to use the other countries Ferry designs anyways...
My 0.02 in Canadian
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I think what James is saying is... If we are going to buy the new Ferries anyways ( Cuz we have no say) Why not have them made here. keeping the money in BC rather than over seas...
Bingo
i hate the thought of more ferries being built but the bottom line is build them here and atleast we can have some people profit rather than none.
i'm sure after these are built they will decide to put up a toll bridge :) :)
russ
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That really sucks!! Its called \"contracting out\" and it will probably bite us all in the asses. Sorta like privitization. They will hear from me to James. Keep jobs in B.C. not in some sweat shop somewhere out of the country like Sumas!! ;)
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Keep jobs in B.C. not in some sweat shop somewhere out of the country like Sumas!! ;)
Settle down Fester. I agree we shouldn't send jobs out of country, I just wanna know how much more taxes will the government take off my paycheck for this. If we employ highly skilled and extrememly highly payed wprkers for this, granted they will make money, but you know what, I'm not working on them there for it's gonna cost me money. It pisses me off to no end to just sit back with my thumb up my ass as the only way to try to protect the raping. I pay enough taxes, so does everyone else here. now before you all flame the shit out of me ,I'm going away now. I had an opinion and I voiced it. This is why politics and religion are not suppose to be talked about at the dinner table right?
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This is pretty much a no brainer, keep bc money in bc, it does us absolutely no good in uganda or wherever. But what the hell are they gonna do with those fast ferries? We could fill them up with some of our favourite politicians be they liberal or ndp and sink it for a diving attraction! There has to be deep enough water somewhere in BC as they seem to have gotten us in enough of it! I sent the letter because we need to get our local economy going and spending the money out of bc will just drive us further into the ground. Maybe prices will drop at Airspeed if we build our economy and the value of our dollar rises and, and, ok I am dreaming but you know what I mean! Just my 0.013 cents US worth.
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I've heard of a few uses for the fast ferries but nothing concrete. One being floating casino, another being a passenger ferry from Victoria to Seattle - all rumors so far.
Yes the company I work for did buy them back at an auction, bidding against several other potential buyers. They basically got them for the price of the engines.
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I watched the news last night, if you can call it that. I still don
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not tryin to be a jerk or anything as I agree with keeping as many jobs \"in country\" as possible. But isnt building a passenger ferry a \"special skill\" ? that maybe someone with experience should be doing? I mean you dont want the airline union guys building a 747 just to keep the job in country do you?
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not tryin to be a jerk or anything as I agree with keeping as many jobs "in country" as possible. But isnt building a passenger ferry a "special skill" ? that maybe someone with experience should be doing? I mean you dont want the airline union guys building a 747 just to keep the job in country do you?
if your trying ot say BC doesn't have a skilled ship building industry, you are being a jerk. the reason the fast ferries only saved about 10 minutes on a trip was becuase they were regulated to only be able to run certain speeds because of the wakes they created. they were capable of faster trips.
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I dont think 66 split was trying to be a jerk. But I think there is a lack of skilled tradesman in this province. People make basically the same in say Alberta plus the cost of living is cheaper by quite a margin. I work for CMBC and we are crying for qualified mechanics and bodyman. There is just not enough to go around. The government should be doing something to try and push the apprenticships a little more. Just my 69 cents worth.
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66split -As previously pointed out the ferries they are building HAVE been built here already so no-one anywhere in the world has more experience than the guys right here.
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66Split does have a point - We do have a vibrant shipbuilding industry but like every other blue collar trade we lack in enough skilled workers because they leave for a place that can gaurentee them steady work. Also the government is always jacking with our education system and making it harder to bring new talent into all of our industries.
When I worked on the last skytrain extension we had to bring in iron workers (specifically rod-busters) from everywhere, out of town,out of province etc even out of country.
We are more than able to build these vessels, as we have built EVERY other ferry currently running in BC. As well as many of the tugs, icebreakers up north, fuel barges etc.
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here is what a guy posted on another BC vw forum that James posted in...makes a good point...
I'm sorry. You'll have to forgive my ignorance in supporting the local economy (that said tongue in cheek)
The BC Ship building industry can thank it's lucky stars for learning how to weld aluminum thanks to the NDP.
Now, a bit of history about the BC Ferry Systems for you.
The C class vessels already exist in BC waters. They are the main ships that run between Horseshoe Bay and Departure Bay. Vancouver to Nanaimo for those of you not raised by Ferry parents
The S class vessels are the \"Spirit of\" ships.
Why should BC Ferry Systems be allowed to tender ship building offshore? Why shouldn't they be? They're NOT a provincial government arm.
quote:
You can have a look at them here, http://www.bcferries.com/about/fleet/ (http://www.bcferries.com/about/fleet/) also note that all the vessels in the fleet have been built here in BC.
There are THREE vessels in the fleet that were NOT MFG'd in BC.
The TWO vessels in the fleet, that were built overseas are: The Queen of the North: Built: 1969, Germany , and the Queen of Chilliwack: Built: 1978, Norway . There's a THIRD vessel that was built in Quebec. Howe Sound Queen: Built: 1964, Quebec
Why should a FREE enterprise company be FORCED to build ships in a province where cost over runs reign supreme? Don't BLAME BC Ferry Systems for sending your money overseas.
If that's the case then the Cruise ship companies would never make any money because they'd be FORCED to build ships in whatever country the company is based out of. That, is a load of BS. Since BC workers HAD to be trained how to weld aluminum, would you really TRUST workers that had built 3 ships, versus the ones who have built a few hundred? I'd go with the ones with a better and a bit more well padded portfolio if I was to spend millions.
BHAHAHa, WHY SHOULD THE GOVERNMENT STOP a private enterprise from building a ship in another country that has more expertise and can do it for cheaper.
If that's the case, then you should sit there and say ALL German cars that are branded GERMAN, should be built by GERMAN workers, and in GERMAN factories. With ALL GERMAN parts and materials.
Would they be better? Who's to say, it all depends on the manufacturers. Would they be CHEAPER? Would they RUN any better? Can you see what I'm getting at?
If A VW was built in Germany with all German components, and NOT off loaded to another country, we'd be looking at 2-3x more cost.
That's what would happen with if BC Ferry Systems was railroaded into building their ships in BC. I'm sorry, but the unions in BC are so protectionist, that they don't want to see foreign competition in our waters. Since BC Ferry Systems is no longer a provincial government corporations, then they should be allowed to spend their dollars wherever it would get the best bang for buck. NOT where the BC Ship building Unions FEEL the best.
If the ships WERE to be built here, we'd see high cost over runs, inefficiency, and generally not as good quality as in Europe.
Take the Skeena Queen. Built in '96. She's ripped out more motors from their mounts due to BC Ship Building and design. Ask BCFC about her service record, and you'll find out that she's spent a LOT of time in drydock to attempt to fix these items. The Queen of Tswassessen had the incorrect motors installed at one point and w/o the right engine mounts, so, when she was turning a screw in reverse to back out of the berth, there was this awful cavitation that caused the severe vibrations.
GO BC SHIP BUILDING. We need that kind of work like Canadian built Yugos
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Shit I stir the pot no matter what I post! :lol:
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in the past, BC's industries have been mainly centered around natural resources. thats not there anymore. would it not make sense to create skilled jobs for british columbians?
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That post is wrong, wrong wrong,
The post makes no sense! Public money funds BC Ferries capital purchases, If it isn't public money, why did tax payers pay for the fast cats? Free enterprises fund there capital purchases, not the tax payers.
Cruise ship lines don't build their vessels with tax money!
What a load of crap
Mike
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i am not sure about bc/canadas government but if you have the voting power you should be able to keep it local...good luck!
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voting power??? what's that? :blink:
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I just wanna know how much more taxes will the government take off my paycheck for this. If we employ highly skilled and extrememly highly payed wprkers for this, granted they will make money, but you know what, I'm not working on them there for it's gonna cost me money. It pisses me off to no end to just sit back with my thumb up my ass as the only way to try to protect the raping. I pay enough taxes, so does everyone else here. now
before you all flame the shit out of me ,I'm going away now. Can I watch that???
If they send it over seas it will be your money's aswell fundung it to some Redheaded stepchild to build it...and your thumb would still be stuck up your ass :P :P :P
BC Ferries is Privatley owned now (Sort of) We still pay out taxes for the new ferries...as well as Trans Link owned by the Coast Mountian bus company...It's all Horse shit!!!
Imagine if this happened in the States... People would be dead!!! \"Ship Yard worker goes on shooting Rampage\"
[_[
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Guess why there is a shortage of Skilled Labour in BC, liberal government \"revamped\" the apprenticeship process, so now if your employer doesnt want you to advance, maybe because it is cheaper for them, then you cant because they have to grant you the time off to go to school to complete your trade schooling. Funny little cycle we are stuck in, just wait for the big economic crash! We will all get layed off and then have to start at the bottom all over again, it happened to me already! We should try and do our best to support or neighbours and fellow tradesmen to keep working! BC can build a better ship even a mouse trap if given the opportunity! Just my other 0.013 cents US !
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Imagine if this happened in the States... People would be dead!!! "Ship Yard worker goes on shooting Rampage"
<_<
yeah but at least they'd be protected by the union ! :)
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Why should a FREE enterprise company be FORCED to build ships in a province where cost over runs reign supreme? Don't BLAME BC Ferry Systems for sending your money overseas.
If that's the case then the Cruise ship companies would never make any money because they'd be FORCED to build ships in whatever country the company is based out of. That, is a load of BS. Since BC workers HAD to be trained how to weld aluminum, would you really TRUST workers that had built 3 ships, versus the ones who have built a few hundred? I'd go with the ones with a better and a bit more well padded portfolio if I was to spend millions.
That is the stupidist point I have ever heard! :angry: Not one word of truth....
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Here is an editorial from Friday's Victoria Times Colonist. Arguing that BC Ferries should be able to buy ferries from the lowest bidder.
Read on....
B.C. Ferries is finally operating like a business
Sara MacIntyre
Special to Times Colonist
Friday, July 23, 2004
In an ironic twist worthy of a Shakespearean play, NDP Leader Carole James criticized B.C. Ferries this week for basing its bidding decisions on value for money rather then playing politics.
Lest we forget the fast ferries fiasco, which cost taxpayers a half a billion dollars, the decision by B.C. Ferries to go with the lowest bidders for its new vessels is a good sign the fledgling company is free from government meddling.
James also criticized the Liberal government for getting out of the ferry business and argued that \"B.C. Ferries spends taxpayer dollars and therefore should be subject to public oversight.\"
But the NDP leader has it wrong. B.C. Ferries is not a taxpayer-supported Crown corporation; it is not even a self-supported Crown corporation. In April 2003, B.C. Ferries became an independent regulated company and now operates as a private business, albeit one with a sizable contract with the provincial government.
Nonetheless, even as an independent company B.C. Ferries is subject to substantial regulation, provincial oversight and its fares, routes and services levels are set out in legislation and under the scrutiny of the B.C. Ferry Commission. New capital investments must also be approved by the B.C. Ferry Commissioner, including the controversial bid to acquire two super \"C\" class vessels with an optional third.
The bid for the new vessels went out internationally and -- contrary to the assertion made by James -- domestic shipbuilders were invited to compete as well. The local company, Washington Marine Group, made it to the second phase of the bidding process but was not invited to the third because of cost and capacity estimates.
Translation: the local bid was not competitive. As an independent business should, B.C. Ferries made its decision according to its bottom line and not from political pressuring.
Provincial governments have a long history of micromanaging in big transportation and infrastructure projects, especially in B.C., and it's always the taxpayer that ends up paying through the nose. This time the NDP would have all ferry passengers pay extra to satisfy the pressure to build at home.
If B.C. Ferries were to take the advice of James and George MacPherson, president of the Shipyard General Workers' Federation, ferry users would be paying a lot more and getting less.
B.C. Ferries has roughly $2 billion in new capital investments, a.k.a. new ferry purchases, planned over the next 15 years. If it started giving preferential treatment to local industry, despite project costs, then the cost per ferry would be a great deal higher -- and as a consequence fewer resources would be available for new ferries.
B.C. Ferries would then try to the recover the costs of awarding uncompetitive contracts by increasing fares to the maximum allowable under legislation. Parking rates and on-board retail prices would likely skyrocket. Why should passengers be forced to subsidize an industry that cannot compete internationally? Why should an independent company be forced to pay more because of industry and union lobbying?
Never mind that the ridiculous notion that business and governments should only buy from local industry is contrary to the driving force behind our province's economy -- trade, both inter-provincial and international.
And, if our ships are only to be built in B.C., than why not our cars, our computers, our MRIs? Because the cost to taxpayers and consumers would be enormous and our province would experience a mass exodus.
B.C. Ferries is on the right track. It is making decisions based on what makes business sense, not what is politically expedient. The last thing B.C. needs is more governmental meddling in transportation projects.
Sara MacIntyre is B.C. director of the Canadian Taxpayers Federation.
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I say sink all the ferrys and build a bridge on top of them and call it done.....Just make sure it's a 4 lane bridge each way not 2 like the trans Canada.
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i concur (agree) with Geoff
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hear hear
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I say sink all the ferrys and build a bridge on top of them and call it done.....Just make sure it's a 4 lane bridge each way not 2 like the trans Canada.
Think about this. The fast ferries cost about $500 millon to build. But that money was borrowed, taken in the form of loans. By the time that money is paid back to the banks, the fast ferries will have cost more than a billion dollars, with interest. At the time the fast ferries construction started, the government of the day figured a bridge from the mainland to the island, would cost about a billion dollars. But they built the ferries, because a bridge was too expensive.
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i'm all for creating jobs for residents of bc aswell as boosting the economy. dont get me wrong. if it can be done, do it.
however, camerons post raises some important and interesting points. one of which is to be successfull you have to make smart business minded desicions. and choosing to build locally, just because it's local, is not a good enough reason. if the local company can make a competitive bid and stay in the race, then all the power to them. i'm not a contracter, but isnt that pretty much the idea? price job, state your bid, out-bid other contracters, get job?
and even though the bcfc is an independent company, we will still be affected by the cost of the project. a more expensive project will result in higher fares, expensive parking, higher priced onboard luxuries, etc.
i'm all for the bridge idea. i wonder why no one has come forward with the proposal to build one? or have they?
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nice research cameron. I am a proponent of hearing \"both\" sides of the arguement before making a decision, unlike my government.. :)
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Why should a FREE enterprise company be FORCED to build ships in a province where cost over runs reign supreme? Don't BLAME BC Ferry Systems for sending your money overseas.
If that's the case then the Cruise ship companies would never make any money because they'd be FORCED to build ships in whatever country the company is based out of. That, is a load of BS. Since BC workers HAD to be trained how to weld aluminum, would you really TRUST workers that had built 3 ships, versus the ones who have built a few hundred? I'd go with the ones with a better and a bit more well padded portfolio if I was to spend millions.
That is the stupidist point I have ever heard! :angry: Not one word of truth....
not to mention its a direct cut n' paste from this forum
http://www.vwdov.ca/forum/showthread.php?t...?threadid=48609 (http://www.vwdov.ca/forum/showthread.php?threadid=48609)
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in the past, BC's industries have been mainly centered around natural resources. thats not there anymore. would it not make sense to create skilled jobs for british columbians?
i'm not sure i get you here.
the province is still making some money off of wood and fish. just not as much as it used to.
i dont think winning a contract to build 2-3 ferries is all of a sudden going to create this huge economic boom and turn the province into ship building heaven. the ferries will be built and jobs will be created, and then the ferries will be completed and the jobs will be over.
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i'm not sure i get you here.
the province is still making some money off of wood and fish. just not as much as it used to.
i dont think winning a contract to build 2-3 ferries is all of a sudden going to create this huge economic boom and turn the province into ship building heaven. the ferries will be built and jobs will be created, and then the ferries will be completed and the jobs will be over.
dude, whats so hard to understand? the people who were working forestry or mining in BC have left for alberta, so has their money. building ships, housing construction, the olympic bid, all that are keeping money in this province. I don't remember saying BC was going to turn into a ship building heaven. but it's not entirely unthinkable that BC could become a contender after it has a few ferries under it's belt. it's all about opportunity.
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The fixed link between Vancouver and Vancouver Island was estimated at 5 billion in the mid 1990's. It
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building ships, housing construction, the olympic bid, all that are keeping money in this province. but it's not entirely unthinkable that BC could become a contender after it has a few ferries under it's belt. it's all about opportunity.
whoa, put down the pipe.
1 out of 3 aint bad. if you think that the olympics and building ships are keeping money in this province, you are sorely mistaken. when do you ever hear anything about the ship building industry making the province tons of cash? never. i'm sure they do well and have created alot of jobs, but are they making the province a ton of money? no.
and dont get started on the olympics. that is going to be such a money pit, it's not even funny. can you name one country/city that has hosted the olympics that has come out ahead of the game? no? because the olympics has always been one of the greatest ways to spend a ton of cash and get nothing back. and dont give me the whole \"it'll put bc on the map\" story.
bc is allready on the map. bc is known for it's natural beauty and outdoor adventure. the tourism industry is one of the strongest. cruise ships, huge. skiing in whistler, huge. surfing in tofino, huge. hiking, mountain biking camping, all huge. golf in the interior, huge. kayaking, fishing charters, boating, all huge. the beaches, the mountains and the weather in the summer. all of this brings people from all over the world here. and with them comes their money. and alot is spent. and that is how alot of money is made here in bc.
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The fixed link between Vancouver and Vancouver Island was estimated at 5 billion in the mid 1990's. It
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The bid for the new vessels went out internationally and -- contrary to the assertion made by James -- domestic shipbuilders were invited to compete as well. The local company, Washington Marine Group, made it to the second phase of the bidding process but was not invited to the third because of cost and capacity estimates.
Misinformation plain and simple. That reporter got the canned version from whomever is the media liason with BC Ferries. I know people that were involved in that bid and they were pushed out due to politics, our bid was financially viable and well within the range of other bids. It's a case of palm greasing simple as that.
Hey Silas, name a city that didn't thrive financially due to hosting the olympics.... Salt Lake is still booming from the winter olympics they held. It's world recognition for the area that drives it, tourists flock to the area after seeing it in the positivly scewed light of the olympics.
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Montreal '76 (still in debt). Besides the point ^_^
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whoa, put down the pipe.
1 out of 3 aint bad. if you think that the olympics and building ships are keeping money in this province, you are sorely mistaken. when do you ever hear anything about the ship building industry making the province tons of cash? never. i'm sure they do well and have created alot of jobs, but are they making the province a ton of money? no.
and dont get started on the olympics. that is going to be such a money pit, it's not even funny. can you name one country/city that has hosted the olympics that has come out ahead of the game? no? because the olympics has always been one of the greatest ways to spend a ton of cash and get nothing back. and dont give me the whole \"it'll put bc on the map\" story.
bc is allready on the map. bc is known for it's natural beauty and outdoor adventure. the tourism industry is one of the strongest. cruise ships, huge. skiing in whistler, huge. surfing in tofino, huge. hiking, mountain biking camping, all huge. golf in the interior, huge. kayaking, fishing charters, boating, all huge. the beaches, the mountains and the weather in the summer. all of this brings people from all over the world here. and with them comes their money. and alot is spent. and that is how alot of money is made here in bc.
once again, you missed the point. and again, i never stated ship building was going to be a powerhouse industry here. pay attention. the olympic bid....well, theres only a few cities that lost money. do you honestly think that countries go nuts on their bids and proposals to lose a shitload of money in the end?? the olympics is huge buisness. aside from that, i'll agree that BC is world class. but it's still a bit of a secret outside of countries like Japan and America and some of Europe.
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Hey the apprenticeship program was well on it's way to ruin long before the BC Liberals got elected. The thing that has hurt our skilled trades the most was the anti-business NDP government that ran this province into the ground by driving away investment dollars, thus there were no jobs (hence no apprentices required) in any of our provincial industries.wayne
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Think about this. The fast ferries cost about $500 millon to build. But that money was borrowed, taken in the form of loans. By the time that money is paid back to the banks, the fast ferries will have cost more than a billion dollars, with interest. At the time the fast ferries construction started, the government of the day figured a bridge from the mainland to the island, would cost about a billion dollars. But they built the ferries, because a bridge was too expensive.
Well at least if they built a bridge, the money would (some of it at least) stay in the Province.
Even if they got an International contractor to build it, their employees would be spending money in BC,
as would the infrastructure to support the employees and project (trucking, food, hotels, etc).
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I dont agree about the apprentice program but all opinions have value, but you know its really great that so many politicians read this forum on a reguler basis.
I am sure that we have changed there minds by spending time bitching here and not doing something a little more direct!
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Sorry forgot this part, I dont agree with you about the apprenticeship program as I had an opportunity to complete mine prior to the changes but now I have to accrue the time off through working overtime, which is currently being banned, and then come up with the $$$ to pay for the apprenticeship which has also gone up 400% this has occurred since the liberals came into power. So now, I must take time off, make no money, pay my rent and bills etc and pay for school.
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/rant on;
This kind of thing is happening in almost every industry. It has now become a Global economy. Things which once were considered local
are now International. I work for Telus. When I started, BCTel had a monopoly on the phone business in BC. We are now competing against
Bell, Rogers(AT&T) & soon Shaw. Look at the Airline industry - deregulation, national competetion is only a step away. The world is getting
smaller every day. Lumber industry - we are competing with Russia, USA, Chile. you name it. Go to London Drugs and see where that sheaf
of printer paper is made. You will be hard pressed to find some made in Canada. This is just a fact of the 21st Century.
By all means, if you can keep it local - do it! But do it only if it makes sense. Back in the 80's, my fellow workers (in Surrey) were going across
the border to buy their gas, milk & cheese. I felt strongly about spending money locally, and keeping this money in BC. I felt as though they
were being dis-loyal to the local farmers & industry. They felt they had the right to spend their hard earned dollar anywhere they wanted.
Since then, I have come to realize we are living in the 21st Century now, and things have changed. I still get pissed off when I go to Save-on
and see the Cherries, Blueberries, Strawberries, etc. from the US, especially when I drive past fields of these every day, but that is just a fact
of Global Economics. Things are changing in the world, and if you fail to accept this, then you will just get left behind.
/rant off
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Politics and religion.Hmm! lets just piss one group off tonite so we will save religion for another nite . Yet ignorance favors into both topics . First of all you have to vote to have a say period ! Hopefully you all voted . I work 712 ironworkers and make a good wage / 4 year apprenticeship. First of the government outta fix the freakin apprenticeship program wich it dismantled 'and more people should be steered and informed about rewarding trades . Bottom line for me is The ferry corp who operatrs in B.C making money of taxpayers should at least make an attempt to let british columbians have a chance to benifit from there need to replace the ferries . That said we also have to be competitive in the bidding and build a quality product . The ignorance part comes into affect where as before one makes a final opinionthey need all the facts and from many sources as the media are just political puppets, and leak and promote there own sides . Kudos to you James for voicing an opinion and the rest of you to . more of us canadians need to become more informed and speak out about things that concern us .Just my 52and a half cents
Later Outkast
Next week RELIGION :P
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BY the timke I posted my last reply two things came up in topic that reminded me SCREW the olympics UNLESS you make it manditory to be on drugs the whole games ,IOC federation , and I must say sorry for the true atheletes is CORRUPT!!!! YES the province wins economically But some locals will also loose you like Vancouver now how about after the Olympics when you'll be squeezed out to Hope And#@$#!!CK the sea to sky highway how many more people have to die on the transcanada highway from Kamloops to Alberta While Whistler and the rich Benefit from the OLYMPICS . Think I'll go have a beer Boy this stuff can sure heat a guy up
LAter Outkast
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Just listened to a show on CKNW about the ferries - seems that BC shipbuilding industry companies were not invited to bid, it was always the intention to build out of country. Bid's were submitted anyways by BC companies. There's another log on the fire....
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Sat down with beer and thought of one other comment (my opinion) Global economy I might have to accept it but in some cases it's B.S . how And more importantly why should we compete with third world countries with human rights violations ,sub standard wages , and unscrupulous business practices .
Thats why people here have to work 2 jobs to make ends meet or both spouses and not have much extra left over . I'm considerded to make a good wage and don't live very extravagently (seriously )and still find month to month tough and i'm not living in the more costly lower mainland . I think if we go any lower to competer will wind up a third world .We need to be aware of where we spend our money and who's profiting and try and help the more community , globaly benefical companies first one person can make a difference . Enough of this for now I had a nice drive to work today in my lold van and i'm going garage sailing tommorrow
Later OUTKASt
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I hear that the Inca's build great floaty things.................
We should try them!
I'll call around, I know poeple! :D
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i never stated ship building was going to be a powerhouse industry here.
building ships, housing construction, the olympic bid, all that are keeping money in this province.
i must have misunderstood you then. it seems you did say that ship building IS one of 3 industries keeping money in this province. so which is it then?
as for the rest of what you said.
almost every city that has hosted has lost money. (except nagano & sl city, but sl city paid over $340 mill for their games).
yes, i believe that cities go nuts on their bids and proposals and lose a shit load of cash in the end. the greed of politicians and the ioc is never-ending.
sl city was a disaster from the get-go. filled with scandalous bribing and greed. if it really helped them that much, was it really worth it in the end?
a quick google search resulted in this. an interesting read. and i realize that all facets of media are skewered, so everything read needs to be chased with a shot of jagermeister. jmho on the state of this topic. and again, no dissrespect to anyone here or their opinions. ;)
http://www.whistlerolympicinfo.com/economi...#Calgary%20myth (http://www.whistlerolympicinfo.com/economic.htm#Calgary%20myth)
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:huh: KA-freakin DUH.of course build them here.And no comparision to the FAST CATS. notice the caps?the fast ferries were a specialized vessel,built with no thought ,an accountants wet dream,politicians eventual nightmare.Designed and tendered for some other place.HIRE the salesman,he was smooth.Sucked us all in.And as much as i dislike the washington group of companies for being a bunch of clod hopping billionare hillbilly yankees,[yeah,met dennis,kyle well whatever.]At least some people will gain employment,spend thier pay here and...............gee..where is the downside?OOOOOOOOOHHHHH ...accounting looks better overseas.A real big ..hm hmm...B.S. to that.B.C. has a great rep for sailors and shipbuilding.Remember these are conventional steel construction,propulsion,blah blah.And we have already built a few,ergo,no tool up costs.in case you are wondering from where I speak,god father [uncle] senior captain [top ooo 6] since they took over black ball line,youngest captain of the fleet.[24 at the time of promotion]Myself,former employee of washington,seaspan,now a tow boat captain else where,but definetly a strong proponent of build it here,sail it here.don't just e-mail them,your mla,spam the hell out of them.Remember,we actually need these ships,they are not 'cutting edge' like those pile o crap fast ferries,just good reliable ships.[with deep friers for fries!!]GET ON IT FOLKS,you all raised a www II bomber in holland,now let us build some really big boats eh? p.s. no offence,but i hated 'dock day' l
;) ol
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;) went on a rant before i read all the threads.Yes fast cats wre a f@#@##@ up,does'nt matter who was in power.centur class are a success.On time budget,but actually quite reliable for a ship that puts in those hours.as for other political issues............so what?rav,olympics,what do they have todo with the ferries? Nothing.The big 0.If it is just about initial cost,i 'll buy ALL my parts in the states,bye bye local vendors,see ya later jobs.Personally I make obscene money,have way too much time off,BUT....I support locals.the crown takes thier[our] money overseas,hey should i too?IF this province and country are enough to live in,are they not a good place to invest in?Politics aside.Is patrisam[sic?] just a beer,a 5.00 flag and a long weekend?Support your fellow Canadians,for tom0orow YOU may need thiers. MY $25.00 worth.
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billionare hillbilly yankees,[yeah,met dennis,kyle well whatever.]
I agree Dennis can be a prick, but Kyle is cool - I've partied with him and work out with him often.
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i'm not weighing in on this one, but i'll throw in a few points here, just as food for thought:
BCFC. it's not an independent company. it's a crown corporation, which means it's a company that is owned by the provincial government, but operated at arms length. while they've got their own corporate hierarchal structure, the board of directors is hand-picked by the premier. it is subsidized by the taxpayers, but under the Liberals, BCFC has been instructed to become a sustainable enterprise on its own. hence fare increases, and paying more for the really bad food in the cafeteria.
bidding process. when undertaking a large-scale capital project such as building ferries, bridges, etc., the government sends out an RFP (request for proposals), and different companies/organizations/crown corps send in *huge* bids outlining every minute aspect of the job, ie. how much it'll cost, how long it'll take, etc., etc. the government has increasingly done this to ensure work comes in under budget. while i certainly am not going to opine on the issue, i find it interesting that james noted BC shipbuilders had developed a bid and were not \"invited\" to submit. as taxpayers, we should have our government officials considering every single bid from contractors, be they public or private, to ensure cost efficiency, viability, quality, and what the best interests of the B.C. populace are in general. as we all pay a helluva lot of taxes, this point should concern you most of all, as it smacks of bias and corruption.
taxes. i guarantee you 100 per cent taxes won't be going up in the next two years. why? it's an election year folks; think about it.
like i said, just some stuff to consider.
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moni, good points. if it is in fact true that the local ship building firm did not get a chance to submit a proposal, then that is bogus. every company should get equal opportunity to present a proposal, no matter what.
taxes. even if they dont go up i believe the government will find other ways to make more money off of us. i may be wrong, but wasnt good old gordo trying to move the election date so he could spend a little more time at the top of the heap?
old fart. you're right. the olympshits have nothing to do with this. it was just a little friendly banter between hellgti and i. and kudos to you and your god father for all you've accomplished.
it's kind of unfortunate, but the fast cats do have something to do with this. for some people, all they believe is bc ship builders + fast cats = crap. i can step beyond this mode of thinking and see the big picture. it's not the fault of the guys and girls and company that built those ships. it was alot more. like you said, greedy politicians and some accountants wet dream. some people are so narrow minded and stuck in their ways that it becomes a \"whats done is done, they had a chance to prove themselves and blew it\" way of thinking. i say fug it. if a local company can do it right and at the right cost, then do it.
which again brings us to the whole \"patriotism\" of canada and bc. speaking for myself, i can proudly say that i love this country, province, city that i live in and will be the last one on this ship if it gets torpedoed and goes down. i'm proud of my roots and where i'm from and who i am. i'll shop locally and support local businesses and do all i can to make sure that the community i live in is well sustained and maintained.
however, i gotta protect my ass. i dont make alot of money and every $ is accounted for and spent smartly. EXAMPLE. and this applies to no one person or business in particular. it is an EXAMPLE that i think we can all relate to. some local person or business is selling a set of mint original magnesium brms for $6000 cdn. at the same time a person or business in seattle is selling a set of mint original magnesium brms for $3500 us. which ones would you buy? i'd buy the ones in seattle and spend the over $1300 i've saved, and take everyone that has contributed to this thread out to get hammered. :D
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taxes. even if they dont go up i believe the government will find other ways to make more money off of us. i may be wrong, but wasnt good old gordo trying to move the election date so he could spend a little more time at the top of the heap?
i agree the gov't will always come up with new ways of making money off taxpayers, ie. user fees. but with the election set for next spring, there is very, very little chance an announcement involving increased taxes and/or user fees for the remainder of the fiscal year. this should continue through to the next fiscal year, as election promises in some degree play out over six months following the polls. after that, though, taxpayers are considered fair game. [_[
gordo won't move the election date. the four-year term is up as of may, and there isn't any real payoff for him to call it earlier than that -- the Liberals have got a lot of planning, canvassing and spinning to do. the election year is underway, and already the \"good news\" announcements of health-care dollars, post-sec funding, etc. are coming in; this is textbook electioneering. and besides, in 2001 he campaigned on fixed-date elections, and it would be a stupid move politically to pull a 180 now.
so essentially we have to look forward to a may 17 provincial election, november municipal election and, possibly, another federal election. like i said before, politicians know they don't score any brownie points when they jack up taxes -- and every level of government we have in BC is facing an election (or possibility thereof) next year. that's why you can anticipate a year or two break from sky-rocketing taxes.
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GET ON IT FOLKS,you all raised a www II bomber in holland,now let us build some really big boats eh?
Sorry, I don't see the similarities to this, to compare the two is nonsense.
But I have a couple questions maybe someone can answer. why do we NEED to build more ferries? are they not restorable at a fraction of the cost? are the ferries in service now going to be junked to make way for new ones? Is the Washington group actually an American owned company? and finally when can we start on religion?
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Holy fuck. I leave my safe, happy, sawzall weilding home for a few minutes to check out what's going on in the local VW scene and find politics, ferries and olympics???? How many of those fast cats are going to be at the next street legals? Will there be an engine pull event at the olympics? Does \"Gordo\" drive an aircooled VW?
Hey Outkast, when is that religion thread starting up? :rockon:
ThrasheR
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Moni you one smart cookie :huh: I like reading your stuff,well informed you are! good stuff :) NOW boys religion :P :P :P :P Wait we had better find a proper forum before we get lynched. Thrasher there should definetly be a VW engine pull in the Olympics ,Write the IOC :rockon: :rockon: today. Matt here is a crazy idea we tie all the ferries together and make a floating quarter mile out deep so the noise doesn't bother people the waves should make it challenging :rockon: :rockon: :rockon: :D Well chat with you all later
Outkast
P.S. to hell with waiting for that deal Silas you pay and lets go get hammered ;) I hear the Willow in Kelowma rocks! :P :P :P :P
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lets go get hammered
i could really go for a drink right now too, after thinking about political shit like that. :lol:
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Is the Washington group actually an American owned company?
The Washington Marine Group is Based outta the States, almost all marine work are in BC - Tugs,Deepsea,Barges,Repair etc... Head office is where I work - 50 Pemberton North Van.
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So ummmm....yeah....I've got this Volkswagen.....
:wacko:
ThrasheR
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The Washington Marine Group is Based outta the States, almost all marine work are in BC - Tugs,Deepsea,Barges,Repair etc... Head office is where I work - 50 Pemberton North Van.
So all this talk about a local company getting the job is all horseshit. All you guys want is the huge union wages it will pay when it is being built, by an American company. Why is it OK for an American company to do this job and not a German one? The money still wont stay in Canada.
And what about my previous questions, why do they need replacement? and why can't they be restored?
Flame on Union members, flame on.
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Matt The profit may or may not stay in Canada as per almost every other industry in our \"global\" economy however all the money paid in wages and all other related activity (including- materials, shipping etc) would be spent here OVER AND OVER again. The benefits are HUGE! Hell James will spend ALL of his share on VW stuff. To make it simple for you even Airspeed parts (the benefactors of this forum) would do better if the ferries were built here! Wayne
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I see this hole topic as union propaganda. Youre not patriotic unless you let bc shipbuilders waste a ton of money on these ferries.
They tendered a bid, and were kncked out by final round. if you cant stay competitive in the field you work in, get the hell out.
still nobody has answered are these restorable at a fraction of the cost.
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I'll give the Resto question a stab.
Fleet vessels have a workable lifetime, once they reach a certain age the costs involved to \"restore\" or in this case refit a vessel outweigh the costs of a new build. Take a vessels that's 40 years old and nearing it's lifespan. To completely gut the vessel, replace major amounts of steel and refit it with new wiring, replumb re+re generators,engines,pumps removal of hazardous material such as lead paint,asbestos etc... you are looking at a mojor amount of time and money.
Now look at a new build, as you are building it you are also fitting in new equipement and systems - major time savings and labour costs are way down. New, up to date materials are used and in the end you'll likely see very similar costs for both vessels yet the benefit is that you again have a vessel with a 40+ year lifespan.
Vessels get a yearly \"checkup\", and are constantly being maintained. But until you basically replace all of the infastructure it is not going to be able to keep up with new regulations and codes.
Ships wear out, they are constantly being abused by operators,patrons,vibrations,sea conditions,corrosion and about any other thing you can think of - they simply wear out.
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Ships wear out, they are constantly being abused by operators,patrons,vibrations,sea conditions,corrosion and about any other thing you can think of - they simply wear out.
My VW is 47 years old. I'm pretty sure with a little maintenance and another resto or 2, it still has at least a 40 year life span.
oops... sorry for going off topic. :angry:
ThrasheR
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Ships wear out, they are constantly being abused by operators,patrons,vibrations,sea conditions,corrosion and about any other thing you can think of - they simply wear out.
My VW is 47 years old. I'm pretty sure with a little maintenance and another resto or 2, it still has at least a 40 year life span.
oops... sorry for going off topic. :angry:
ThrasheR
Bill I think that is the topic we should stay on.... :D
Ok 4 pages about the ferries... Lets move on folks!!!(at the risk of being called Kirin)
How was your weekend?? I went swimming with 8 babes and James/Shane!!! Bikini's everywhere...
and Diapers!! :D
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Lets move on folks!!!(at the risk of being called Kirin)
Good call Kirin, um....Shane.
Next stop...Religion. whos first??
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Just got back from drunk inner toobin in princeton, pretty damn fun and hot. Dont have time to read all the rants tonight, that's for work time :lol:
Mike
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And what about my previous questions, why do they need replacement? and why can't they be restored?
Lets say you find a 60s VW Van that needs a total resto. Take it to your local UNIONIZED auto repair shop that charges, say, $75-100 an hour. By the time you do the body work, total interior renovation, engine, trans, and buy all the trim bits, it will easily cost you $25-30k. At that level, if all you need is a van to take the kids to their soccer games, just go over to the KIA dealer and buy a new van for less money.
I have a friend who had his 71 Super restored a couple of years ago. He's into it for way over $20k, and its totally stock. For $20k he could have just bought a new Golf.
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Sorry forgot this part, I dont agree with you about the apprenticeship program.............
So now, I must take time off, make no money, pay my rent and bills etc and pay for school.
How is this different than what every student at SFU and UBC have to do? Every doctor, lawyer, engineer, school teacher, optometrist, accountant, dentist........
You work 10+ months a year and you can't save up enough to take 4-6 weeks off per year for your education? AND get paid pogey to boot!
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I got to say that the rates are neccesarily the fault of the unions, many companies inflate there rates as they feel unions cost more money, a lot of big businesses have a \" no employee is gonna get rich of off me\" attitude and want to make more money then the employees. Some companies charge extremely high rates to there internal groups when the employees make around 25% of what is actually charged, so where do all these added costs come from?? Where is the 75% going to??
Anyway, this has been stretched and skewed in so many ways, if you want to support it then go for it if not you dont have to! Support Zimbabwe Shipbuilders they now how to get you there!
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DONE!!!!
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Ships wear out, they are constantly being abused by operators,patrons,vibrations,sea conditions,corrosion and about any other thing you can think of - they simply wear out.
My VW is 47 years old. I'm pretty sure with a little maintenance and another resto or 2, it still has at least a 40 year life span.
oops... sorry for going off topic. :angry:
ThrasheR [/quote]
Sorry Bill, but your VW hasnt been sitting in salt water for years at a time. Nothing lasts forever that gets used all the time. Theres alot of union bashing on here by people who are only getting one side of the story. Unions have done a lot of good things in the past as well. One example would be paid holidays and lunch breaks. Unions fought hard for these. Come over to the other side Matt. You wont get rich working for someone else but at least youll get paid well for an honest days work. I personally would like to see these jobs stay locally because we need them. But we have to stay competitive. Sorry to bring this back up again. But I do feel better :mellow: .
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Come over to the other side Matt.
Um, no thanks.
No offence Brian, but with the hourly wage I make now, as well as the fact I work flat rate. I would not get paid as much working for a union. I get paid holidays and benefits already.
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Sorry Bill, but your VW hasnt been sitting in salt water for years at a time. Nothing lasts forever that gets used all the time.
No need to apologize Sir Snapper, but my car did sit in a field for I don't know how many years and for just over a year has been my trusty daily driver. Oh shit there I go off topic again. What was I thinking bringing up VW's on this union/ferries/politics site?
ThrasheR
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I tried to kill this toppic with a silver bullet but I ran out of beers. , ;) So here is my 2cents you spend more time at work than with your family sometimes so you have to have a good employer I currentley work 712 Ironworkers and the work enviro is pretty decent. I have also worked in some non union jobs just as good . Sometimes due to the trades the unoin goes hand in hand ,We all gotta pay the bills somehow and how and who we do that for is up to the individual to decide .As (Rodney King said 'CCan't we all just get along and go for a ride in our VW'S ) or something like that :) :) :)
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712, I used to be in 501!
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I'm a lifelong member of 666. :rockon:
ThrasheR
ps. I drove my VW today.
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I'm a lifelong member of 666. :rockon:
ThrasheR
ps. I drove my VW today.
And I see you've been driving the Square as well! Blew past ya in the other direction a couple times in the Golf
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And I see you've been driving the Square as well!
Also known as \"my better looking half's DAILY DRIVEN VW\".
We took it on a ferry last weekend but it wasn't a BC ferry. (trying to get back on topic :P )
ThrasheR
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Um, no thanks.
No offence Brian, but with the hourly wage I make now, as well as the fact I work flat rate. I would not get paid as much working for a union. I get paid holidays and benefits already.
Hmmmmmmmmm, well Im happy for you Matt that you like where you work. I guess thats half the battle. But, you say you would not get paid as much working for a union, How do you know? Im not too familiar with this \"flat rate\", How does it work? I know you get holidays and benifits already and you can thank the unions for that. I will put this topic to bed now. Im going back to work. Have a good day all. ;)
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http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pag...ticleID=1674661 (http://www.mytelus.com/news/article.do?pageID=canada_home&articleID=1674661)
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Hey Thrasher I drove the split van Evreyday this week It makes my understand why I work to enjoy my hobby and FAMILY PLUS ITS COOL PASSING PEOPLE IN A 57 VAN . :lol: aND jAMES HOPEFULLY THE FERRY THING WORKS OUT :) mEANWHILE THRASHER WILL CONTINUE TO TRY AND HIJACK IT :lol:
lATER OUTKAST
P.S. the new ferry should have a VW logo front and year !!!!
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Here is the reply I received from the Transport Minister.
Reference: 126194
Re: Ferry Construction
Thank you for your recent e-mail expressing your concerns about BC Ferries'
selection of a company to construct two new Super C--class ferries.
I know our province has a proud shipbuilding industry and although a British
Columbia firm did not make the shortlist for this vessel construction
program, there will be many opportunities for them in the future. Over the
next 15 years BC Ferries needs to replace 22 vessels. They expect many of
these medium and small vessels will be built in British Columbia or
elsewhere in Canada.
BC Ferries already does a great deal of work with the Washington Marine
Group, British Columbia's main shipbuilder, and that is expected to
continue. In fact, BC Ferries has done more than $60 million worth of
business with them over the past two years and expects to do the same in the
coming two years.
With respect to the competition for new Super C--class vessels, for the last
twelve months BC Ferries conducted an international tendering process. No
parties were excluded from this process and Canadian shipyards, including
American owned Washington Marine Group of North Vancouver, were invited to
participate. As you are aware no Canadian shipyards made the shortlist and
there is a strong likelihood these large vessels will be built in Europe.
No final decision has been made at this time but BC Ferries is expected to
announce the successful proponent and a construction timetable early this
fall.
As a government, we made a commitment to fair and open tendering across
government to ensure taxpayers receive value for money. As a now
independent company, BC Ferries also embraces that belief and makes its
capital decisions based on sound financial and business practices. BC
Ferries' goal is to ensure the best value for people who pay to ride our
ferries. Unnecessary additional costs would be passed along to ferry users
in the form of higher fares - something the corporation is working hard to
avoid.
Thanks again for taking the time to write.
Best regards,
Kevin Falcon
Minister
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Yup I got the same generic reply as well, wish he would tell the truth in it.
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mEANWHILE THRASHER WILL CONTINUE TO TRY AND HIJACK IT :lol:
lATER OUTKAST
Now why would I try to do that? I drove Lora's squareback all the way to Vancouver and back today. That's like a major road trip in one of these old cars [_[ What was I talking about...
ThrasheR