AirSpeed VW Community Forums
General Forums => Air Speed Lounge => Topic started by: 52 split on November 06, 2008, 03:34:20 AM
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hello all , newbie here on site, would like some thoughts on cutting in a three fold top into an early 52 crouch cooler,this car is # matching,the car is ready for paint, the thing is , metal has been replaced in the usual places, front fire wall, heater channels, rear &front aprons with german metal as much as possible. :-\would this ruin or help a future sale, does any one know a good installer and where i could get a correct three fold top? . thanx
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You've got a numbers matching vehicle, and you want to cut in a top?
From my perspective, that is a definite turn off towards the value of a future sale. For what it's worth, I say don't do it....
-Dave
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I agree dont cut it!
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From personal experience, the sunroof will add value to the car. I have yet to see a genuine -55 sunroof car(of the many I've worked on), 90% are spliced anyhow.
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good call Lanny. I will smite the others for you
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How can you tell if the car has been spliced with a rag top?
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Go ahead and cut away I agree with Lanny
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Just do it well-don't hack it and make it hard for the upholstery guy to finish! :D
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Before you worry about lowering the value(which I dont think it would if done right), you might want to price out finding a roof section and the mechanical parts. The cost of the parts alone if you dont have them might help you to decide...
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good call Lanny. I will smite the others for you
I smite thee for ruining my neutral score!
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Back on topic...
From what I saw this past year while shopping for a bug, most of the grafted in roof's were either a) noticeable in some way, or b) being passed off as factory folding roof cars. Usually it was "found out" and exposed by someone who knew a previous owner. If the market is valuing cut-in's higher then fully matching cars, then I guess I'm wrong.
But it just seems to be a shame on a numbers-matching car. For what-ever reason, it seems "okay" to me if it wasn't numbers matching.
-Dave
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Don't do it ! The car has survived this long with out becomming a baja or "The pink lady" If it were mine # matching , Noooo Way!
Sorry Lanny.
J
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I wouldn't do it.
If it was a shell and missing most everything when you got it I would say go for it, but it sounds like you have some what of a survivor. Besides sunroofs are nosiy and they leak. ;)
In the end it's your car and only you can make that final decision.
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Personally I would leave it alone , it might be worth more with a sunroof in it but it shouldn't always be about monitery value , original cars are not falling out of trees and they don't make them anymore so nothing wrong with preserving another one . Having said that there are some very nice modded vintage vws around too . If you really want a sunroof , its your car and I won't hold it against you .
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It's only original once!
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I'm not one to talk as both of my cars are modified, but I'd leave it as is and then go find a rag for the next project.
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Relax Guys/Gals!!! It's only a matching number 52. I see them scooting around town all the time.
I say one piece window kit, louvres the running boards & deck lid, shaved handles & moulding, suicide doors and then paint it "peachy pink".
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I think if you plan on keeping it for a long time and are not considering selling, then go for the sunroof. Just make sure its done right and no one will ever know but you. If you do decide, I suggest you talk to Lanny or Stefan Feeg, and Im sure you'll be glad you did. Beetles are dime a dozen anyways. ;)
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Hey!, I'll send you a dollar, (or a dollar twenty-five U.S.A.) , send me 10 Bugs if they are so plentiful up there. Hell I'll even come up and get them. Seriously tho, It's the owners choice, but it has been my past experience that a numbers matching collectable vehicle, ( 32 Ford, 55-57 Chev, 65-66 Mustang etc.), that has been correctly restored or original, will have a wider resale interest, than a modified one. Notice I did not say worth more. Its just that when you start modifying a vehicle, you have to realize that not everyone may think it is for the better. Myself, I really enjoy viewing a correct vintage automobile, But Big Daddy Ed Roth will always be my hero. ( I might be bi-polar). REMEMBER its YOURS! Whatever you decide, ENJOY IT!,
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I say put it in.
A true 11G split is definitely worth the most, however, a properly welded in correct 3 fold will still make the car worth more than if you leave it the way it is. Just like a semaphore'd oval is worth more than a later oval.
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I think you should leave it alone it a 52 for gods sake dont see them every where. Plus down the road you might regret putting it in and then there is no turning back and making it original again. Do it or Dont still your decision. Would be nice to see some pictures thou... ;D
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i will vote put it in, no question really if your going to sell it, a well done one will bring the bucks up, if your going to keep it why not have a big ass sunroof in it, i see no down side and if the "original" folks dont like it well they can find out what was original to that car and put a solid roof, im sure 50's cars have the same kinda shape if its easy to put a sunroof in than its easier to put a roof back on. the custom guys can work welders just as good as the stock guys think about it!
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If you do it right it can always be corrected, Look at the amount of work that goes into some of the split restorations in the U.K.
Have fun, most likely you will not find a original one anyhow.
The money is there anyhow, I think its worth more if you do it,
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first of all...welcome to the asf!!!!
secondly...
...52 crouch cooler...
a crouch cooler!!! sweet. ;)
finally...
i'm with the "dont cut" party. i'm definately no purist (i love 'em all), but imho, splits are way too rare to be cutting roofs in. especially a #'s matching split. even if it's had heater channels & aprons fixed/replaced...it's still not worth it...for the sake of originality and resale value (see below).
now...alot of people here (yourself included) have mentioned the resale value of the split should you decide to sell it. the argument seems to be that a split rag (even if it's unoriginal) would gather more cash than a hardtop. i dont necessarily believe that to be true.
case in point (and someone correct me if i'm wrong here)...the randy gates "gates of heaven" split window hardtop and the rich riviera "brown gfk ragtop split" (which i'm fairly certain was an original rag) were two cars that had different looks (cal-look vs resto-custom) but were also two cars that were top shelf restos with all the bells & whistles and all the coolest one-offs and were built by the same guy (buddy hale).
both cars sold for roughly the same price...$65-70k (give or take a few bucks...but if i recall the end prices were not that far off from each other...and again, someone correct me if i'm wrong).
and this was a real rag vs a real hardtop.
my point is...that if a split is built right in the first place...it should gather top dollar regardless of if it's a hardtop or ragtop. but it also seems that split folks (stock or custom) seem pretty picky about the fact that the more original a split is...the more it's worth.
so if you're looking solely at the higher resale value...dont cut.
and if you're looking solely at originality and authenticity...then dont cut.
but in the end...it's your ride to do with as you please...so whatever you end up doing...make sure you drive it and enjoy it!!! 8)
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thanks for all your input on cut or not, i did not want to put in a sunroof to increase a future sale, i wanted to hear thoughts on if doing so would lower the value of the car. i do like the looks of a sunroof and i plan on keeping and yes driving the car. i would like to show the car in aug at the show if completed on time, hey the classic would be great to go to as well, i will be doing a resto\custom theme.brms or porsche alloys?. lowered a tad in the front narrowed somewhat. nothing to far from stock. keeping all the stock parts in storage. of course i hope to do a proper job on the car. i could use the number of gary economy to install the interoir,or some one exprencied on the island to do the job?. i have a complete ingrid opermier interior, the engine was done by okrasa joe by the p o for this car.maybe i should find an okrasa kit for this engine. i do have photos not sure how to post.there were no computers when i went to school.would some one with vintage know how volleenteer there # to consult with, i have only worked on 1965+ cars. thanks again all
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Good points Silas, although Richs' 50 was a basket and I'm 90% sure it was spliced. The Gates Split has $25K more in the running gear(EFI 2332/Berg5) while the 50 has a 25 HP. I feel the the splice won't hurt the resale value, that's the question first asked.
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CUT!!!!!
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thanks for all your input on cut or not, i did not want to put in a sunroof to increase a future sale, i wanted to hear thoughts on if doing so would lower the value of the car. i do like the looks of a sunroof and i plan on keeping and yes driving the car. i would like to show the car in aug at the show if completed on time, hey the classic would be great to go to as well, i will be doing a resto\custom theme.brms or porsche alloys?. lowered a tad in the front narrowed somewhat. nothing to far from stock. keeping all the stock parts in storage. of course i hope to do a proper job on the car. i could use the number of gary economy to install the interoir,or some one exprencied on the island to do the job?. i have a complete ingrid opermier interior, the engine was done by okrasa joe by the p o for this car.maybe i should find an okrasa kit for this engine. i do have photos not sure how to post.there were no computers when i went to school.would some one with vintage know how volleenteer there # to consult with, i have only worked on 1965+ cars. thanks again all
welcome mr 52 ;D
my 2 bitz..... if you want a sunroof car and you are gonna keep it then go for it! (as long as it's a 3 not a 2 fold!!) That said if it were for resale, then unless you already had the clip it wouldn' be worth it...... $3+ for a complete clip, then if you had to pay someone to graft it in proper $$$$$ would at least equal if not exceed the increase in value.
You mentioned the island.... where are you located? I'm in Victoria building a 55 rag and could give you a hand if needed.
Josh
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Here you go. Don't know if it's a two fold or three. In Tacoma.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=665813
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NO Don't!! :o
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na dont do, I am on that side of the fence, ya got a crotch cooler that cool enough
if you really want to buy a clip ship it to the island spend the 3-4 gs. then sit on it for a while
be happy with what ever you do, and drive it. okrasa soods cool is there anybody running one on the island
cheaper than rag top preaty fun too,a little vintage preformance
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Here you go. Don't know if it's a two fold or three. In Tacoma.
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=665813
That's a 2fold
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..... i wanted to hear thoughts on if doing so would lower the value of the car.
Not a bit.
There aren't a lot of buyers out there that hate sunroofs. For those few buyers that dislike sunroofs, there are plenty of non-sunroof cars for them to look at.
You've already stated there's been significant metal replaced (front fire wall, heater channels, etc.) Since split stampings differ from later oval bits or aftermarket, your car isn't going to be a 100 point car. Build it the way you want it. Then if some purist nerd wants to remove the sunroof, any roof stamping from any other year is the right shape. (except for 73+ Supers)
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Good points Silas, although Richs' 50 was a basket and I'm 90% sure it was spliced. The Gates Split has $25K more in the running gear(EFI 2332/Berg5) while the 50 has a 25 HP. I feel the the splice won't hurt the resale value, that's the question first asked.
good points on the gates running gear...
but in rich's 50's defence...i'm still fairly certain it was an og rag. it was advertised as one on oldbug.com and i dont think randy would want to jeapordize his reputaion by falsly advertising a vehicle. i also swear that i read somewhere that it was an og rag. and even tho it's only a 25hp engine...it was pretty damn close to perfectly correct with all the right parts on it. and that car had alot of rare and hard to find split only goodies...alot more than the gates split. so when you factor in the cost of all the rare parts and the time that it takes to locate said parts...i would believe the total dollar value would be very signifigant.
would this ruin or help a future sale?
as for your original question...i dont think it would help a future sale. as the years pass by and split window bugs get harder to find, it think potential buyers will be more concerned with the originality of the vehicle. i believe that it will be more important to a prospective buyer that the car is as uncut as possible.
now...would it ruin a future sale? it's a split...it'll sell. but i think a perspective buyer is more likely to pass on a cut rag than a real hardtop.
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thanks for your offer to help josh, iam up in alberni, give me your # or e-mail , i will call when help is needed, i could e-mail you or some one else and they could post a few pics of the car, not to sure even how to use these smilies. i saw your car looks good.besides the samba where does one look for split rareities or acessories??
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thanks for your offer to help josh, iam up in alberni, give me your # or e-mail , i will call when help is needed, i could e-mail you or some one else and they could post a few pics of the car, not to sure even how to use these smilies. i saw your car looks good.besides the samba where does one look for split rareities or acessories??
if you want to post some pics of your split...you will need to host them somewhere (thesamba.com gallery, photobucket.com, etc) and then copy & paste the img properties to this forum.
if you want me to host them on thesamba.com & then post them here for you, email a few pics at silasbancroft@telus.net
cheers & good luck with the split by the way. i'm not trying to give you a hard time about wanting to put a rag in your split....i'm just stating my opinion thats all.
i know that you will do what you feel is right and will drive and enjoy the car as you should. when it's all said and done...we build cars to please ourselves...not others!!!
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thanks for your offer to help josh, iam up in alberni, give me your # or e-mail , i will call when help is needed, i could e-mail you or some one else and they could post a few pics of the car, not to sure even how to use these smilies. i saw your car looks good.besides the samba where does one look for split rareities or acessories??
right on man, my parents are building a place in Bamfield.... I may pass through port next time I go up.....i'd dig seeing your project. my # is 250-588-7025, email is joshbuchan@shaw.ca if you need your pics posted
cheers josh
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Good points Silas, although Richs' 50 was a basket and I'm 90% sure it was spliced. The Gates Split has $25K more in the running gear(EFI 2332/Berg5) while the 50 has a 25 HP. I feel the the splice won't hurt the resale value, that's the question first asked.
good points on the gates running gear...
but in rich's 50's defence...i'm still fairly certain it was an og rag. it was advertised as one on oldbug.com and i dont think randy would want to jeapordize his reputaion by falsly advertising a vehicle. i also swear that i read somewhere that it was an og rag. and even tho it's only a 25hp engine...it was pretty damn close to perfectly correct with all the right parts on it. and that car had alot of rare and hard to find split only goodies...alot more than the gates split. so when you factor in the cost of all the rare parts and the time that it takes to locate said parts...i would believe the total dollar value would be very signifigant.
If you wanted to know the true market value, you would have to do a statistical survey. You need at least 30 samples to get an accurate picture. Any statistician would look at the Gates and Rich' 50 splits, and ignore them as irrelevant. They sold for so much more than the norm, they are considered outliers.
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If you wanted to know the true market value, you would have to do a statistical survey. You need at least 30 samples to get an accurate picture.
ya...i'll get right on that. ::)
Any statistician would look at the Gates and Rich' 50 splits, and ignore them as irrelevant. They sold for so much more than the norm, they are considered outliers.
i disagree...those 2 cars are very relevant to each other and the market of top shelf split sales and i dont think they sold for way more than the norm because the fact is...is that they sold. iirc, there was recently a buddy hale restored bone stock split for sale for around $55k...so when you think about the gates split running gear and rich's 50 split rare parts...they went for what they were worth.
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You've missed my point. Those cars don't represent the average car on the market.
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I'd say if your keeping it stock...and thats your thing....don't do it!
On the other hand....I perfer the cal-look resto-custom thing....lets just say i'd put it in!
Gerry
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You've missed my point.
your point was to gather 30 cars and do a statistical survey to find the market value. that's not going to happen (here at least).
then you stated that any statistician would ignore the gates and rich's split as irrelevant because...
Those cars don't represent the average car on the market.
this is true. but they do represent 2 cars that were on the market not to long ago and it also proved that a split can draw a hefty price in original (modified) condition. i brought up those 2 cars because they were 2 splits that were pretty close to similar in my eyes and worth a comparison...both an og hardtop and an og ragtop...both built by the same guy...etc...
truth be told...statisticians probably dont give a f@#k about old acvws...so you shouldnt waste your time waiting for one to stop in. ;)
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i started a thread and posted some pics of 52 splits car in the "members gallery".
nice to see some local vintage split steel!! check it out!!!
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well seems to be a split decision on cut or not, no pun,i will see what the costs to do and if someone is able to do it. this time i asked about cutting. you see at sixteen years of age a shorty van was a neat thing, the auto shop teach said his farm came with a rusted vw van i could have,this thing was good for my plans before i did my 69, the van was missing all running gear, striped insides,only springs for a seat, no front floor. well after a foot + half removed i was not to do this to my 69. to much work+ a sixteen year old needs transport not a van cut in half,way diff van than mine i thought. small rear window, huge engine bay door you could climb in, tiny round lights, solid looking rear shocks. hmmm lesons learned , ask ,research, ask again!. i did save the dash pod, window latches, those little glass lights+a few others which i took to a so cal swap meet in 1980 thinking some one would want old parts here , the mecca of vws not like back home, lane evans -htvws fame said 60 bucks was to much for the lot, no other takers that day. a long way to take this junk i thought. oh well that was then. lessons learned indeed
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well seems to be a split decision on cut or not, no pun,i will see what the costs to do and if someone is able to do it. this time i asked about cutting. you see at sixteen years of age a shorty van was a neat thing, the auto shop teach said his farm came with a rusted vw van i could have,this thing was good for my plans before i did my 69, the van was missing all running gear, striped insides,only springs for a seat, no front floor. well after a foot + half removed i was not to do this to my 69. to much work+ a sixteen year old needs transport not a van cut in half,way diff van than mine i thought. small rear window, huge engine bay door you could climb in, tiny round lights, solid looking rear shocks. hmmm lesons learned , ask ,research, ask again!. i did save the dash pod, window latches, those little glass lights+a few others which i took to a so cal swap meet in 1980 thinking some one would want old parts here , the mecca of vws not like back home, lane evans -htvws fame said 60 bucks was to much for the lot, no other takers that day. a long way to take this junk i thought. oh well that was then. lessons learned indeed
One more barndoor bus bites the dust. I'm sure you weren't the only one to cut up one of those.
I think I should smite you for it anyways though. ;) :D