AirSpeed VW Community Forums
Technical => Engine Tech Forum => Topic started by: neil68 on April 18, 2008, 10:41:38 PM
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Finally got my 2332 cc into the Beetle for some test drives. Last year this was a 2017 cc and made 131 HP at the wheels. Any guesses on HP as a 2332?
FK8/1.4's, CB 044 Ultra Mag Plus heads now with 44 x 37 valves & porting/unshrouding by K-Roc, 1 3/4" header, IDA's with 42 vents, 10.5:1 CR, 3,600 ft. elevation (Calgary), etc.
I'd like to thank Darren Krewenchuk for taking the time to work on the heads/manifolds this winter. During test drives, this motor certainly makes the Beetle scary to drive on the street ;)
Also thanks to Bruce Tweddle for the longer clutch lever that now makes the KEP Stage 2 more bearable...what a great idea :)
We are buried in snow today in Calgary, but I hope to get on the Concept 1 chassis dyno for some tuning, as we start racing on May 16th. Here's a few pics:
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi28.tinypic.com%2Ft8u9sp.jpg&hash=bc9c2597a2270bcdca429d8bffc2891c0f0d63df)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi30.tinypic.com%2F10ol4bo.jpg&hash=6b62f271a7618ab3a8bba8c4511ffce1c54d7fa4)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi28.tinypic.com%2F2qs5fh1.jpg&hash=f85ada34ce471d9863cdffc8d14df35f412c3f8a)
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Way to go Neil, 3 weeks will fly by till the first race.
Kevin
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At the track: When you see the sky as you drop your clutch make a note of bladder control :P
The mechanical fuel pump should suffice. Theres alot of time to consider an electric fuel pump setup (pump w/ extrernal reg or self regulated). This will clean up the engine compartment and assure enough GPH to the IDA's. Since the motor is out you can modify the bottom of your tank to 1/4 NPT for larger flow out of tank and run a larger diameter fuel line in the tunnel.
OR
just tell me to shut and mind my own business :) Seriously you'll have a hoot with the new HP!! You can keep your existing setup but make sure you have the IDA's float bowl modification. If you dont lean out on the top end ...dont worry about the fuel system upgrade.
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looks like a monster neil!!! have fun with it.
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At the track: When you see the sky as you drop your clutch make a note of bladder control :P
The mechanical fuel pump should suffice. Theres alot of time to consider an electric fuel pump setup (pump w/ extrernal reg or self regulated). This will clean up the engine compartment and assure enough GPH to the IDA's. Since the motor is out you can modify the bottom of your tank to 1/4 NPT for larger flow out of tank and run a larger diameter fuel line in the tunnel.
OR
just tell me to shut and mind my own business :) Seriously you'll have a hoot with the new HP!! You can keep your existing setup but make sure you have the IDA's float bowl modification. If you dont lean out on the top end ...dont worry about the fuel system upgrade.
Hi Alan,
I certainly value your input and experience, so keep the comments coming :)
The float bowls were opened up by JayCee Enterprises (according to the previous owner of the IDA's). I have thought about an electric pump and larger fuel vent and/or lines for the future.
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Some pics from last season...ran 14.3 sec @ 94 MPH. Hoping to run low 13's or maybe even high 12's, this year:
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi32.tinypic.com%2F2s6sg2w.jpg&hash=ba71ef88b2ab6c0a69c6a4d01543711af6fd6305)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi25.tinypic.com%2F5bz983.jpg&hash=9fe526d63c3be83304f8003de3ab79765e536271)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi28.tinypic.com%2F314qlxw.jpg&hash=a98477a221c145101cccdeafb047d25800bc2e68)
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2332 cc update: Got in seven races tonight at Race City in Calgary.
All races were in the 13's with a best of 13.245 seconds at 99.57 mph. Air density altitude was 4,867 feet at 10 pm (the best of the night), when the above ET and MPH was registered.
1/8th speed was 81.87 mph...not sure if that is good or not...
Also a new best 60' of 1.750 seconds. Unfortunately, my tach decided to quit tonight, so I was just guessing on launch rpm's and shift points and hit the rev limiter a few times.
Dropped air pressure to 18 lbs in the M&H's tonight.
Going on the dyno next week for some tuning and to see if there are 12's in this combo.
PS: I must thank Darren for the head work, as one full second in ET is quite an improvement from last season!
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi26.tinypic.com%2F35cqzok.jpg&hash=b67abadc2d5b05059a3702d035f26d94957acf7d)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi25.tinypic.com%2Fehbt5t.jpg&hash=dbfc0ec0e7619c6d6615354a3a3ccfd934e92857)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi29.tinypic.com%2F155kzgm.jpg&hash=667ed520255e4859d4060de3fb8ab25450771095)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi27.tinypic.com%2F2lt6i6c.jpg&hash=ed00838d4349217c4e9d1d5234bc55b608c1414d)
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All races were in the 13's with a best of 13.245 seconds at 99.57 mph.
Going on the dyno next week for some tuning and to see if there are 12's in this combo.
Drag that thing down here next month. You'll get your 12 and then some.
Notwithstanding the dyno tuning, you've got more to go in your 60's. How hard are you hitting it on the line?
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Yes, I am going to try to make it to the GCVWS, provided work doesn't interfere...and fix the tach, so that I can test some different launch scenarios...
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Way to go Neil. 8)
Yeah Vancouver should provide you with 12's especially once you get some dyno & seat time with the new combo. Heck bring it out my way and you would be damn close to them too.
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Update-Dynojet testing today:
The old fan belt broke on the first run (put two dents in my deck lid), so we ran without a belt: 169.2 HP and 165.9 ft. lb. torque.
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.tinypic.com%2F2upwu2x.jpg&hash=a32cec289685e3a3f6bbc2a3eb85cf6310f072c7)
Took a few runs with different timing and then a final run with another fan belt, but for 10 HP less.
Not sure what 169 HP at the wheels would convert to on an engine dyno...maybe 185? Any ideas?
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.tinypic.com%2F1262rza.jpg&hash=08ef81f58bcc4c976d201c397c348a13e5c9c30b)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi34.tinypic.com%2Fe69lxc.jpg&hash=94f7c7dda8de05d3a9eef9ff51825cee84c8c782)
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Here's a couple of the Dynojet runs at Concept 1:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=9UqSJdRngJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRAdj8-cYw
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Update: Made it up to Edmonton to run at Castrol Raceway last night. Very sticky track, so I had trouble bogging down...2.025 seconds was my best 60' :-[
However, I finally got over the 100 MPH trap speed with 101.46 MPH. Now I just have to put my best 60' of 1.750 seconds together with some top-end shifting to finally get into the 12's. Will probably change the camshaft this winter...
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Although it's fun to fantasize by marrying up your best short times with your best top end times, it doesn't work that way. The reason you broke 100mph is because of your crappy 60' time. I know it doesn't make sense, but it always holds true. When you have a good 60' time, you are consuming up the length of the track while going slow, so you don't have the length to build mph.
Have a look at your old time slips. In runs where you have a bad 60' time, your mph will usually be a couple mph higher than normal.
I think you should next work on lightening up that tank. Are those original steel sprint stars? Over the next winter, spend time removing weight. There's plenty you can do.
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Bruce,
That's an interesting point about 60' time vs. trap speed! I dropped the slicks to 17 lb and with the Edmonton track so sticky (they prep it for the parachute pony cars), I was bogging and swerving at launch.
I'll be back at Race City in Calgary this week (where they don't prep the track so well), so we'll see if I can finally get that 12-second pass.
Yeah, "tank" is a good description for my Beetle...got it down to 1,750 lb + my 210 lb = slow 1/4-mile ;)
I'll pull the seats to lose some weight and try 7-8 runs at various rpms...I'm having fun, so it's all good!
The Sprintstars are original '68 steelies...I've been looking for some genuine 4-bolt Centerlines for the track...
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All things being equal, you will ET better in Calgary, and mph better in Ed.
Centerlines are NOT light. No performance advantage there. ERCOs and other pie plate wheels are unmatched in weight. Less than 1/3 what your steel wheels weigh.
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Well, Calgary's race track has ceased operations as of today...with an uncertain future :(
So, I may not bother experimenting much more with other cams, or lightening the Beetle...maybe just the odd trip to Edmonton to race.
I'd still like to try out your track at Mission some day...just to see if there is a 12-second pass in this Beetle.
Thanks to everyone for all the driving tips, head porting, etc, this year!! It was fun while it lasted :)
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Bruce,
I raced in Edmonton last night with a couple changes: increased tire pressure 2 lb and launch revs 500.
Got my quickest 1/4-mile so far:
ET: 13.156 sec
60': 1.784 sec
100.63 MPH
Some pics from this race...first pic is just after launch:
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.tinypic.com%2F2qbzjhu.jpg&hash=c2004f462c51cc52dd2bc5fd0c2433df0ba4d448)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi38.tinypic.com%2F28rmdfk.jpg&hash=daec5d2cf99b13cc029101759475bde243f6141e)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.tinypic.com%2Fuln6c.jpg&hash=f2341bb7e4e960e37817dbb40348a3560bb01b29)
We been given a reprieve in Calgary, as they are going to start the street legal races again next weekend, with another group organizing it :)
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way to go neil...congrats on a great pass and 100mph!!!
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All things being equal, you will ET better in Calgary, and mph better in Ed.
Centerlines are NOT light. No performance advantage there. ERCOs and other pie plate wheels are unmatched in weight. Less than 1/3 what your steel wheels weigh.
Bruce,
What about these repro Centerlines at CIP? Are they lighter? Will they fit my short-axle four-bolt drum set-up?
http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C32%2DCLP4
Thanks!
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Ran a bunch of low-13's again last week in Calgary...this motor is certainly consistent. I've come to the conclusion that the FK8 has done as much as it can, for a mild cam, as it seems to quit pulling at around 6,500 rpm.
So, does anyone have any cam recommendations to get me into the 12's? I know I need to lighten the Beetle as well.
Suggestions that I've received are: FK10, FK87 or Web 86C. I would prefer to not have to notch the pistons, if possible, but still run a 10:1 CR. Also, don't want to go too radical (eg. FK89/98) as it's still a street car.
Thanks :)
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i just quickly reviewed your thread .
let me share something i ,like many have learned.before you jump in with both feet.
when you start increasing the N/A output of your motor to even higher levels it no longer becomes a check under the hood once a month deal.
due to the fact you have now pushed components to or almost to the edge ,maintence /inspection/repairs becomes a must due before each use.why? because when parts are being pushed to limits you need to keep on top of things to be aware of any potential falure and catch it before its to late.and the bottom line is high strung N/A motors and drivelines require allot of attension and don't forget $$$ at times.as well don't forget about all the added support equipment needed to operate the motor and trans.
then like many we get sick of the now required additional $$$/maintance /repares etc and use the vehicles less because they are now a pain in the ass.
like many i've been there way to many times and because of the above reasons and many more i have completely changed the way i build motors .
is it possible to have a real street/strip low 12 sec car with street performance and a reasonable maintance schedual .yes it can be done .
but it all starts with carefull selection of parts .
sorry don't take this as negative , i'm all for speed i just wanted to make sure you know what you are getting into .
if you are serious and want to increase your performance ,let me know and we can carry on in this thread or through e-mail or phone
jim
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Good points Jim!
I should clarify, that I'm fine with doing the required maintenance for a hi-po engine. While this Beetle is primarily a heavy street car, I don't rely on it for driving to work, etc, so I don't mind checking the bearings, valve train, etc.
The FK10 was suggested by another racer as a nice next step up from the FK8 without getting into the race cams. I prefer to make one change at a time, then test how the combo responds...
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welcome to the world of high performance,
take a look at 2007 results ,you can see its not easy getting into the 12's with any car and especialy a heavy car.now try to get into the low 12's and it gets even harder.
TOP 15 N/A VEHICLES
# NAME ET MPH 60ft WEIGHT VEHICLE ENGINE LOCATION DATE
1 ALAN UYENO 11.923 108.82 1.510 1690lbs 65 BEETLE 2332cc BC 08/17/07
2 CHRIS TARASOFF 12.194 106.83 1.667 1200lbs 57 MANX 2276cc SASK 08/12/07
3 DUSTIN VANDERWOUDE 13.116 101.78 1.799 1980lbs 69 BEETLE 2276cc ALTA 05/12/07
4 FRED FALCAO 13.272 98.97 1.908 2000lbs 70 BEETLE 2332cc ALTA 05/25/07
5 GARY ECONOMY 13.279 101.27 1.808 1930lbs 67 BEETLE 2276cc BC 08/17/07
6 CHRIS CASWELL 13.464 98.04 1.784 1750lbs 61 BEETLE 1914cc BC 08/12/07
7 ROBERT SPOFFORTH 13.474 102.23 2.117 1900lbs 54 BEETLE 2276cc BC 08/17/07
8 JASON JOHANSON 13.677 100.61 1.954 1700lbs 63 BEETLE 2400cc T4 ALTA 08/24/07
9 NEIL SPEIRS 13.710 98.40 1.881 1975lbs 68 BEETLE 2017cc ALTA 08/03/07
10 BRIAN COOK 13.770 92.25 1.865 2000lbs 69 GHIA 2221cc BC 08/12/07
11 ROBERT WILSON 13.805 94.15 1.847 1900lbs 62 BEETLE 2276cc ONT 08/03/07
12 TIM HANCOCK 14.164 95.66 2.134 1850lbs 67 BEETLE 2276cc WASH 07/13/07
13 JOE LIES 14.238 92.27 1.990 1750lbs 66 BEETLE 1955cc WASH 07/07/07
14 ROB THOMAS 14.527 91.27 2.001 2100lbs 70 BAJA 2276cc WASH 07/07/07
15 BRENNAN SHEREMETO 14.759 91.10 2.205 1870LBS 63 BEETLE 2017cc BC 08/03/07
there is way more than just replacing a cam ,you need to consider valve springs and valve clearance as well as making sure your other componets are up to the higher rpm that will come with it.
why don't you start with a list of what your car has,i don't care about brand names just facts eg 84mm crank , 5.6" rods etc.then what your target E.t is and what you want to spend to get there.
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welcome to the world of high performance,
take a look at 2007 results ,you can see its not easy getting into the 12's with any car and especialy a heavy car.now try to get into the low 12's and it gets even harder.
TOP 15 N/A VEHICLES
# NAME ET MPH 60ft WEIGHT VEHICLE ENGINE LOCATION DATE
1 ALAN UYENO 11.923 108.82 1.510 1690lbs 65 BEETLE 2332cc BC 08/17/07
2 CHRIS TARASOFF 12.194 106.83 1.667 1200lbs 57 MANX 2276cc SASK 08/12/07
3 DUSTIN VANDERWOUDE 13.116 101.78 1.799 1980lbs 69 BEETLE 2276cc ALTA 05/12/07
4 FRED FALCAO 13.272 98.97 1.908 2000lbs 70 BEETLE 2332cc ALTA 05/25/07
5 GARY ECONOMY 13.279 101.27 1.808 1930lbs 67 BEETLE 2276cc BC 08/17/07
6 CHRIS CASWELL 13.464 98.04 1.784 1750lbs 61 BEETLE 1914cc BC 08/12/07
7 ROBERT SPOFFORTH 13.474 102.23 2.117 1900lbs 54 BEETLE 2276cc BC 08/17/07
8 JASON JOHANSON 13.677 100.61 1.954 1700lbs 63 BEETLE 2400cc T4 ALTA 08/24/07
9 NEIL SPEIRS 13.710 98.40 1.881 1975lbs 68 BEETLE 2017cc ALTA 08/03/07
10 BRIAN COOK 13.770 92.25 1.865 2000lbs 69 GHIA 2221cc BC 08/12/07
11 ROBERT WILSON 13.805 94.15 1.847 1900lbs 62 BEETLE 2276cc ONT 08/03/07
12 TIM HANCOCK 14.164 95.66 2.134 1850lbs 67 BEETLE 2276cc WASH 07/13/07
13 JOE LIES 14.238 92.27 1.990 1750lbs 66 BEETLE 1955cc WASH 07/07/07
14 ROB THOMAS 14.527 91.27 2.001 2100lbs 70 BAJA 2276cc WASH 07/07/07
15 BRENNAN SHEREMETO 14.759 91.10 2.205 1870LBS 63 BEETLE 2017cc BC 08/03/07
there is way more than just replacing a cam ,you need to consider valve springs and valve clearance as well as making sure your other componets are up to the higher rpm that will come with it.
why don't you start with a list of what your car has,i don't care about brand names just facts eg 84mm crank , 5.6" rods etc.then what your target E.t is and what you want to spend to get there.
No sugar coating? ;D
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Hi Jim,
I'll send you a PM :)
Thanks,
Neil.
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PM function didn't work, so here's my specs:
CB 044 oval-ports, now 44 x 37 with Darren's porting, 50 cc chambers
IDA's with 42 vents (also have 40's), JayCee enlarged float bowls & progression circuits for street driving, Geers stacks
84 mm forged 8-dowel crank
94 pistons in 90.5 spigots
5.5" H-beams
straight cuts
Bugpack lightweight race lifters
Manton pushrods
zero DH plus 0.060" copper gaskets
MSD distributor, 6AL, Blaster 2, 8.5 leads
26 mm pump with full-flow
Berg 3.5 qt. sump
Rancho Pro Comp 1.48/1.04
SAW short race axles
Berg traction bar
Mohr intermediate mount
HD VW rubber mounts
Bus snubbers with stock Z-bar
M&H DOT's 215/65 on 5.5" Sprintstars
2.5" dropped spindles
CE 90/10 race shocks
KEP Stage 2, Centerforce dual friction disc
Everything balanced to drag race specs
91 octane (3,300-3,600 ft Calgary & vicinity)
Have run Engle 120/1.25's (9.6:1 CR) and then Engle FK8/1.4's (10.5:1 CR)...heads should be good for FK10 or Web 86C, so I'm looking for anyone with similar combos and their results. I'm aware of all the "expert opinions" in the Cal Look circles in Orange County, CA as we spend part of each summer down there, however, I'm looking for some Canadian input.
Thanks!
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Thanks for the PMs everyone. It looks like the Web 86C is the next test cam :)
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sorry i did not look in my inbox for awhile .
neil you don't have the gearing to run a 86c ,that cam makes top end /higher rpm power.when i ran that i was turning N/A 7500 rpm all gears and with Nitrous between 8500 -9000 rpm .
with your current stock 1 and 2 , ? on the ring with a not so low 3rd and 4th you will not get the motor into the rpm range needed for a 86c .you need gears not a cam .
gearing and cam work hand in hand , and need to be carfully selected.
eg :my N/A gearing with a 3.88 ring was selected to pull a 86c or larger duration cam, 4.11/2.47/1.71/1.31.that gearing and cam was able to run mid 12's at 108 mph in a 1850 lb car but rpm was high but it was planned to turn over 7500 rpm at the finnish line .in your case you will never be able to keep the motor in the power band above 6500 + rpm .to run 105 mph with a 1.04 4th you will be turning 4700 rpm ,forget it.the cam will not help .
does this make sence ? you have the dyno results ,you need to calculate usable rpm range .upper and lower rpm window and design your gearing around it . or if you want to leave your gear box alone and not split the case a better cost effective solution is to add nitrous ,with your gearing and present cam and a 50 shot will make huge torque ,you can easily drop a second as well as keep good street gearing .
if you need to understand more about gearing and cam relationship call me
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;D Gearing is huge when it comes to the quartermile! I blew my 1.04 4th and tried a 1.13 4th just because and my times where better and the car seemed to have more power in 4th gear as well, more in its RPM range.
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sorry i did not look in my inbox for awhile .
neil you don't have the gearing to run a 86c ,that cam makes top end /higher rpm power.when i ran that i was turning N/A 7500 rpm all gears and with Nitrous between 8500 -9000 rpm .
with your current stock 1 and 2 , ? on the ring with a not so low 3rd and 4th you will not get the motor into the rpm range needed for a 86c .you need gears not a cam .
gearing and cam work hand in hand , and need to be carfully selected.
eg :my N/A gearing with a 3.88 ring was selected to pull a 86c or larger duration cam, 4.11/2.47/1.71/1.31.that gearing and cam was able to run mid 12's at 108 mph in a 1850 lb car but rpm was high but it was planned to turn over 7500 rpm at the finnish line .in your case you will never be able to keep the motor in the power band above 6500 + rpm .to run 105 mph with a 1.04 4th you will be turning 4700 rpm ,forget it.the cam will not help .
does this make sence ? you have the dyno results ,you need to calculate usable rpm range .upper and lower rpm window and design your gearing around it . or if you want to leave your gear box alone and not split the case a better cost effective solution is to add nitrous ,with your gearing and present cam and a 50 shot will make huge torque ,you can easily drop a second as well as keep good street gearing .
if you need to understand more about gearing and cam relationship call me
WOW, that is some cool stuff . I almost felt like I should have had a smoke by the time i finished it. ;D
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Hi Jim,
I will give you a call one of these days. Here was some of the factors I considered:
W-120: 253 degrees (at valve 0.050"/1.25 rockers), 0.496". Got me into the 14's a couple years ago.
FK8: 258 degrees, 0.534" (1.4 rockers). Very streetable and produced 13.1 second 1/4-mile at 2,200 ft elevation (probably high 12's at sea level).
FK10: 266 degrees, 0.539". Most mentioned that I probably wouldn't see much improvement...maybe a tenth or two. Not worth swapping the FK8 for.
86C: 272 degrees, 0.546" Several recommended this as the best choice for heavy (stock) Beetles, with stock or close to stock gearing...still streetable, however. Head guy also recommended as a good choice along with CB 2289?
FK87: 276 degrees, 0.561" Not as streetable...more for hardcore racing or limited street driving.
You make a good point about my gearing and I'm not sure what gears I'll end up with. I talked with Sam at Rancho and also someone with the 86C, 4.125 and 1.14 fourth who was running 11's in a full-weight Beetle, so they both thought mid-low 12's was do-able.
Time will tell. I like to make one change at a time, so I'll try the 86C with no other changes and then address gearing, tire size, etc...
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You will see better results by lowering the gearing than changing cams.
My oval with 2332, small port 044's, 86c, stock weight... didnt get into 12's until I changed to 4.12r&p with 1.48/1.14. With that combo ran 12.70's all day long and still streetable.
Good luck, Gavin
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Thanks for the input...someone else also recommended the 4.125 with 1.14 4th.
I currently have a 4.125 with 1.04 4th, so I'm just a bit taller. I'll probably just see what happens with this tranny, since I haven't broken it yet ;)
Then I'll consider the 1.14 or maybe even a 1.21 or other. How do you like your 1.14 on the highway?
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Webcam 86C dyno test. Well, I removed the FK8 and replaced it with the Web 86C. On the Dynojet, this produced 11 HP more, with a peak of 180.4 HP at the wheels at ~6,000 rpms. We didn't do any jet changes, just played with the timing a bit. Thanks for all the input! Here's one of the charts:
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi40.tinypic.com%2Fhthc2c.jpg&hash=4d933adc0d8add36a9948d01ee501963b51bc22f)
Here's a video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of3rpUDIRxA
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Went racing again tonight in Calgary and got a new best ET of 13.177 seconds at 100.48 MPH for the Race City track.
I've run this fast before, but only at lower altitude in Edmonton (2,200 ft), so these were my first 100 MPH runs in Calgary (3,300 ft).
Bruce: I installed the 170 main jets and 210 air correctors that you recommended and I think it must have made the difference.
Just waiting for the close-ratio tranny to arrive from Rancho...thanks for recommending Mike Herbert (I emailed him and he took the time to phone me to discuss gearing...and was a pleasure to talk with :)
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Went racing in Edmonton last night, at the Castrol Raceway Street Legals. Got five races in before the lineup got too long, with a new best ET of 13.120 seconds at 100.88 MPH, still using the 1.04 fourth gear tranny setup. It was a warm night, so the 2,200 ft elevation was higher due to the air quality.
Best 60' was 1.750 seconds without a burnout.
I think that will be all for this tranny, so hopefully I'll get the Rancho 1.31 4th tranny ready for next week at Race City...
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I think that will be all for this tranny, so hopefully I'll get the Rancho 1.31 4th tranny ready for next week at Race City...
get ready to rev , 8500 rpm here you come
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... a new best ET of 13.120 seconds at 100.88 MPH,
Same jets as in Calgary?
I think you're gonna run out of gear with the new gearbox.
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New gearbox is 3.875 R/P with 1.31 fourth, while the current one is 4.125 and 1.04 fourth. I'll have to play with the jetting some more...
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Here's a few pictures from Castrol Raceway Street Legals (Edmonton), courtesy of btljuce. This drag strip is similar to Mission, in that we race into the sun (fortunately the clouds helped out on Friday). Best ET was 13.120 seconds and best top end speed was 101.35 MPH:
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi26.tinypic.com%2F2ij57w9.jpg&hash=402e4daf81563047e34e457868806f2fff0d3d2e)
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Installed the new Rancho tranny and went racing last night at Race City in Calgary. Unfortunately, the track was not prepped, and the first 60-330 ft was very slippery in both lanes. Most of the drag cars fishtailed at the start and then packed it in for the night (they're racing today).
I had the same traction problem, with my 60' time being 2.195 seconds on the first run, then got down into the 1.8-1.9 range as the traction improved during the night.
Then on my sixth and final race, I got a 1.750 for the 60' and a 13-second run. Air density was 4,800 ft, so better than most nights, but not enough for a 12.9 race.
The good news was a new best top-end speed of 102.71 MPH. I hit the 7,000 rev limiter twice, so I think I'll try a 7400 chip next time. Will also make another trip to Castrol Raceway in Edmonton, to try their low altitude track ;)
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How much does your car weigh?
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It weighed 1,750 lbs the last time it was on the scale...plus me at 215.
I know I need to lose weight, as does the car ;)
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Update: Got seven races in last night at Race City (Calgary) with a new best ever ET of 13.104 seconds at 101.78 MPH. My 60' was 1.803 seconds, as the traction was a bit sketchy. It's nice to be chipping away at the ET, so I think I'll try to get to Castrol Raceway (Edmonton) next Friday and go for a 12.9.
I changed the MSD chip to 8,000 rpm, as I kept hitting the 7,000 rev limiter in first and second. I'm trying to shift at 7,100-7,200 rpm now.
Any suggestions on tire pressure for M&H DOT 215/65B15's? I've been down as low as 17-18 lb., but often bog at the start. Here's a video from last night:
View My Video (http://tinypic.com/r/2sbs68k/3)
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what rpm are you trying to launch at?
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I've tried various launch rpms...but it seems to work best at around 5,800-6,000 as I can sometimes get a 1.750-second 60', which is the best I've had with this Beetle.
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1850 lbs with driver , 7400 -7700 rpm , 14 lbs on the M&H dot's-22 mm bars , cut bus snubbers , ce shock all around , netted wheels up and low 1.6 60 ft .
that was my original setup
i would not worry about launch so much as much as i would work on dial-in .roll away from the start say at 3500 rpm every time and shift like a robot at say 6800 rpm every gear . then make one timing change or jetting change and watch your mph .if you gain mph your on the correct path .if you loose mph your not, this saves your tranny and clutch until you need to or want to gain that extra mph or few 10 ths
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Thanks for the info, Jim.
I will continue experimenting with tire pressures and launch/shift rpms...off to the races again tomorrow night :)
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Another night of 13.1-second ET's at 102 MPH...I'll say one thing, this Beetle is consistent ;) Air density was over 4,000 ft again, so not great. 60' times were still poor...1.8 was the best of the night.
After reading Kevin's thread, I decided to check the NHRA conversion charts and found that 13.1 seconds at 3,300 ft elevation is equivalent to 12.7 seconds at sea level. So, perhaps that is about all this combo can do, at least with me driving.
Since I'm currently running 1.4 rockers, I might try some 1.5's, since we're down to the last two weeks of racing in Calgary. Here's a photo from Race City tonight:
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.tinypic.com%2Fo56hcg.jpg&hash=d322b84e74a951c025ef3df09d8fa5016916ef82)
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NIce shot and love the car nice meeting you this year Good luck with your racing
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Hmmmm, my 5.5" slicks with 25psi right side -28psi left side of air, 1850 lbs, no burnout, 3:88 with a 3.78 first gear, completely stock rear irs , stage 2 hd daiken , has got me a best of 1.712 launching at 6000rpm, and I am really trying to let out my clutch foot slowly so I do not break my stock tranny. I'm suprised your 60's are not lower, or maybe it's my irs keeping the tire planted on the ground better, even though my right side trailing arm is bent and my negative camber is 3/4 inch. Your car is very consistant, can't argue that. I bet you will break into the 12's at Edmonton. Have you tried slipping your clutch at the launch by slowing down your left foot? How about shallow staging ( just barely getting the second bulb to come on) so your car is moving faster when you leave the lights to start the clock? Do you take your fan belt off for each pass? fan belt equals 2.7 - 3 tenths, atleast on my car thats what I get.
Kevin
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Raced at Castrol Raceway in Edmonton last night at their Street Legals...there was a huge turnout! Got four races in between the 6:00 pm start and 10:30 pm. Just as I was leaving, to drive back to Calgary, the announcer said they were going to spray the track, for the gamblers round...which was all the 9-11 second cars racing for the nightly pot of $. He said they often race until 4:00 am and this might just be one of those nights as conditions were excellent. Oh, well, I'll have to plan an overnighter next time :)
The good news? Finally got the Beetle into the 12's. I knew it would be a good night when I ran 13.008 ET on the first run, when the weather was still warm.
-13.008 ET, 1.765 (60'), 103.08 MPH
-12.957 ET, 1.762, 103.24 MPH
-12.964 ET, 1.783, 103.23 MPH
-12.942 ET, 1.776, 104.27 MPH
I dropped the tires to 17 lb. and tried the higher launch rpms as Jim suggested and people were coming up to me saying that the front wheels were lifting and that I was launching very hard. I raced an SRT8 with 500 HP and he just caught me at the 1/4-mile and he had an automatic, while I was madly trying to shift, watch him and also watch my tach...which is under the ashtray...I'll have to move it next year ;)
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Way to go Neil... So what rpm did you end up launching at?
Kevin
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I'm not sure of the exact launch rpms, but between 6,000 and 7,000. I have a small VDO tach under the ashtray, so it's difficult to see precisely what the revs are...and also keep an eye on the tree ;)
I think I'll mount the tach up on the dash for next year!
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there are a couple of things i noticed using a 3.88 ring and a 4.11 first .this may help.
i'm actually in 1st gear for 0.8 of a sec then shift .this does not help your 60 ' as you can imaging shifting to 2nd
gear kills the 60' time .the best i have actually got my car to 60' was around the 1.5 zone .car was launched at almost 8000 rpm
13 lbs in the rear tires and shifting into 2nd at 9000 rpm .i was never able to be consistent as there was to many track variables
that would not allow for repeat low 60'.
still i would recommend launching at at least 7400 rpm with your cam and gearing .
here are some random launching things to think about.
-once staged and you preload the driveline .lock the rear wheels and push the clutch to the floor .you will not unload the preloaded trans as it is held in the forward preloaded state by the locked rear wheels.
-if you do lots of racing, run more crank end play like .008 " to allow for more oil cushion against the #1bearing and flywheel.
-if you bog on the line you are doing more damage than spinning a bit .think of all the forward motion/energy from the clutch disc ,through the complete trans ,axles and finally at the tires .the tires bite and your motor bogs .there is now a complete reverse power wave back through the axles to the trans to the disc ,the your motor starts to make power and the whole wave changes direction again in the forward motion .the stress in the trans and drive line because of this reversing and appling wave is massive and highly destructive .avoid bogging
-avoid bogging at all costs by upping your launch rpm or increasing your tire pressures .its better to spin than bog .
- small motors need more rpm on the line than big motors to prevent bogging
-get someone to film your launch ,paint a white mark on the sidewall and watch for at least 1/2 the sidewall disappearing into the fender.
-set rear wheels about 1/2 deg positive while at rest .
- release the clutch smooth instead of side stepping it .
-try both methods .pedal to the floor bouncing of the rev limiter or using a combo of pedal position and rev limiter .
- if you spin to much at the line decrease air pressure or decrease rpm by 100
- only change one thing at a time .weather its rpm or tire pressures or shock settings etc .or you will never know what works best .
- if you have rear wheel hop , stop and figure it out quick .
- if your ring starts to sing shut it down before its too late .
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Thanks for the insight, Jim! I am certainly wary of stressing my tranny too much, so I like the concept of spinning the wheels a bit on launch.
I'm going to drive up to Edmonton again on Saturday, as their final street legal event of the season is a Saturday-Sunday format. It's supposed to be cool, around 10-12 degrees, so it should make for some fast times. Also, they are going to prep the track, as there is also a Street Car Shootout challenge:
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-once staged and you preload the driveline .lock the rear wheels and push the clutch to the floor .you will not unload the preloaded trans as it is held in the forward preloaded state by the locked rear wheels.
This might load the suspension, but once you push the clutch all the way to the floor, the whole driveline is not preloaded.
The clutch needs to be dragging a tiny bit on the clutch disc in order to preload right through the gearbox.
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I keep quite abit of pressure on my clutch at the light, infact you can see it on the one video I have of the rear of the car squating as I engange the clutch with quite abit of pressure. I have allways done this, and must be doing something right for the tranny, I have way too many launches on this stocker since 2001.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LmJ7JcdQEk This was a 1.76 60' in this video. I launch at 6000rpm
Kevin
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I keep quite abit of pressure on my clutch at the light, infact you can see it on the one video I have of the rear of the car squating as I engange the clutch with quite abit of pressure. I have allways done this, and must be doing something right for the tranny, I have way too many launches on this stocker since 2001.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LmJ7JcdQEk This was a 1.76 60' in this video. I launch at 6000rpm
Kevin
your just lucky, your using the anti-shocker now right, that and you dont do burnouts, one slip of the foot off the clutch and your likely going to snap that mainshaft....
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your just lucky, your using the anti-shocker now right, that and you dont do burnouts, one slip of the foot off the clutch and your likely going to snap that mainshaft....
No anti shocker yet, it's still sitting on my bench, I never got a tap the proper size.. I have over 80 launches on slicks so far, not wanting to break is the reason why I keep 25 and 28 psi in my slicks too, I have noticed that even with this much pressure, it seems the only times I have spun is because there is water on the track. These 5 1/2" tires stick very well. I have had this tranny since 2001 and well over 300 launches, mind you most of them with street tires on ...preload, preload, preload keeps everything happy, and I tap my dash 3 times before every pass ;D....NOT !!!!..I am waiting for it to go boom..crunch...grind...on every pass, but it keeps surprising me.
Yup just lucky I guess.
Kevin
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your clutch disc will always be dragging in the direction of rotation even with the clutch pedal to the floor .dont think that when the clutch is depressed there is zero contact between the flywheel and disc or pressure plate and disc ..the term preload is not do to the fact you are putting some form of tension in the driveline it has to do with all the slack being taken out of every component required to move forward ,so that when the clutch is engaged there is no slack to be taken up which could result in a premature falure.
when you do a burnout for the reason of heating the slicks to gain traction and launch hard enough with enough torque behind it from a large motor to pull and carry the frt wheels its a matter of time before there will be a falure of some type .take a look at some of alans wheel stands and 1.5 zone 60' that is huge stress on the trans .
my current trans has had easy over a 100 passes with large burnouts as well as launching on the bottle .i would say i got more than fare value out of that ring . there is no way a stock trans would of taken 10% of that abuse.
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your just lucky, your using the anti-shocker now right, that and you dont do burnouts, one slip of the foot off the clutch and your likely going to snap that mainshaft....
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I think its a single side plate irs He's got , so it has the 3.78 ("super beetle")1st and the 3rd & 4th gears with integral syncro hubs so they wont spin off. He'll blow the spider gears or cv's first ;D
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yup... its a ssc irs with a stock diff made into a superdiff. Hoping the cv's do blow first, thats why I kept them T1 instead of switching them out to the thing axles, cv's, stub axles and output flanges I have here.
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I was fortunate to pick up some SAW short swing axles from C1 several years ago...back when they were considered almost bullet-proof. Apparently the newer SAW versions have been produced off-shore and are not as reliable.
Here's my best time slip from Edmonton. Still have some work to do on the 60' and learning to shifts at higher rpms...it's difficult to change after 30 years of shifting by ear ;)
Going to lighten the Beetle a bit and maybe increase the .550" valve lift to .580"...probably have to notch the pistons, as it's close already:
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi35.tinypic.com%2F2j15r9t.jpg&hash=d7d32aa4176bc9596b8d822135f1ad37041fe3c2)
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Nice to get out one last time Neil, Thats a good #. Let me know if you are going to Vernon anytime, you can stop in for a visit. ;D
Kevin
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You in Vernon, Kev? Thought you were in Sicamous or SA?
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I am in Sicamous...Neils parents are in Vernon...or maybe they were in Kelowna. He would be driving through though.
Kevin
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now is the time to spray it ;)
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Jim,
I may just do that ;) It's crazy how many people come up to me at the tracks and tell me that I should put nitrous on this motor for the finishing touch! One Volvo mechanic in Calgary has offered to get me a complete kit, with spacers that go between the manifolds and IDA's...he calls it a complete bolt-on kit. However, I haven't done any research at all yet, so it's too early. I'd appreciate any suggestions :)
I'm really happy with how the Beetle drives...it always runs straight as an arrow, with no sign of instability, so it could probably run in the 11's and still be safe.
We still might have another couple weeks of racing in Calgary, according to the track website, but after that I'll have some thinking to do for next season. Probably will put the original 1500 cc back in for the winter :)
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Has anyone tried a Web 226? I found a "stroker clearanced" 226 on the internet, so I'm going to give it a try:
278 degrees at 0.050" and 0.569" lift with my 1.4 rockers
The Web 226 appears to be the same as a CB 2298 (278/.570"), and just a hair bigger than an FK 87 (276/.561")...might have to notch the pistons this time.
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Well, I finally got working on the camshaft swap...decided to try the Web 226 next. Checked the lift today and got 0.570" at full lift with Scat 1.4 rockers. Had to switch from the Manton 0.035"-wall pushrods, as a couple of them bent last season...installed some 0.058"-wall Manton's this time; they are heavier but hopefully more durable. I have only found two people on all the ACVW forums who had ever used the 226 (I'm sure there are more, but most either use the 86C or 251). Here is the spec sheet:
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Thats a good street cam ;D It will be intresting to see what the difference is in power. Kevin
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thats no street cam that a 3/4 race cam .lol
thats got more running duration than the 86 c .hope you changed your gearing .
if you wanted more lift and a shorter duration i'm sure the new line of engle cams may work also .
another good option would be a web 86 b or engle fk 8 with 1.5 rockers
not sure what you have for valve springs but would recomend erco tripples
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Jim,
Here's my new Rancho gearbox setup: 3.875 with 3.78/2.26/1.65/1.31
How do you think that will match up with the new cam?
Had 180 HP at the wheels last year with the 86C.
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Here's my new Rancho gearbox setup: 3.875 with 3.78/2.26/1.65/1.31
Ooops, you shoulda gone for a 4.11/2.47 mainshaft. You need at least 200hp to pull a 3.78 on a 3.88 R&P out of the hole.
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I spoke with two of the Rancho staff, and that is what we came up with for gears.
This gearing did finally get me into the twelves, at the end of last season, but the 60' times are still the same as with the other tranny...
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.... but the 60' times are still the same as with the other tranny...
That's because you don't have enough hp to pull it out of the hole.
There's one way to fix your car. Make more HP!
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.... but the 60' times are still the same as with the other tranny...
That's because you don't have enough hp to pull it out of the hole.
There's one way to fix your car. Make more HP!
see even Bruce agree's SPRAY IT
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Or make the car lighter... easier on the drive train...