AirSpeed VW Community Forums
General Forums => Air Speed Lounge => Topic started by: Lanny on August 28, 2007, 09:46:17 AM
-
Thanks to the trusty LM1, the 67 passed Aircare yesterday..I couldn't believe it, I was jumping up and down like a kid..
2275 CC, 48 IDAs w. 42 vents, CB 2295 cam, 9.5 CR, around 200+ HP. It can be done! :D
-
do u still have to have one of those nitwits drive your car? That is pretty incredible to pass
-
Thanks to the trusty LM1
That code for $300 bribe?
-
Mine failed last weekend. Bone stock 1500 and I couldn't get it through in 2 attempts. Sucker's really well-tuned to, right down to the dwell. Both times it was the high CO on the driving test, suggesting a rich mixture. The car has only 7000 miles on it since last years test, which it sailed through. This morning I installed my super tiny hand-made main jet and I'll run it through tomorrow. Failing that, I'll be asking around to see if anyone's got an LM-1 with a tail-sniffer they can loan me.
-
Last time I had issues, I went to John at VanWonder here in North Van. He's got a sniffer and got me through with flying colours. If free, he'll do it while you wait if it's a simple adjustment. The aircare is close by....
B.Waz
-
Bastard!! [_[
-
Ive got an Lm1 with tail sniffer if you need J
-
Congrats Lanny, I wouldnt let one of their techs in a car that nice!!!!
-
its all in the tune :D
-
congratulations! That is only the second time I have heard of IDAs passing aircare.
Jason, you will have more luck messing with the idle cct than the main jet. Post your VIN, I can have a look at it.
-
why cant I get my car to pass aircare with Ida's???
BECAUSE I'd have to go through the test on the dyno and not just an idle test. But seriously my IDA's do not have the 3rd progression hole and I run big 45mm vents so I do not have the vacuum signal compared to guys using 37-42mm vents. I've been fighting with rich a/f mixture in the 2000-3000 rpm range with my car.
As a matter of fact I guarantee alot of guys that pass will fail if they go through the test immediately after. The linkage, spring advance in dist and other variables will change the idle on an aircooled engine that changes temps. I see this on my gas analyser all the time. Water cooled cars are definitely more stable than an aircooled VW. If the aircare biotch blips the gas it'll enrich the mixture and you can literally see it on the graphs they provide you. I've spoken to one of the managers at an aircare center before telling them that a particular aircare biotch was stepping on the gas pedal erratically (I was sittting in the passengers seat)The accelarator pump would dump more fuel in the mix and fail CO. A customer of mine (when I was in north van) failed horribly and he threatened the center and they put it through again with a different Aircare \"boy\" and the car passed.
stockers with Pict carbs never fail on the load test. They typically fail in the idle test.
Many times I find the sample of dilution is caused by negative reversion. Lanny did they put a big hose on the tailpipe??
-
Hmmm, good point Alan. Lanny, did your test include the dyno part?
-
I sat in the passenger seat and coached the guy along. I stated the ride height was too low and to test the idle only, they went for it. I've had that car aircared so many times with IDAs and fail, the huge majority of the time(probably 99%) on the idle test. He did have to try and hold the revs at 2500 for 30 seconds, a bit of a chore. Once he did that, it sat at idle (around 1000 RPM) for 30 seconds. The AF showed 13.9-14.2. I left the timing at 32 degrees total, using 91 octane. 65 idles, 170 mains, 180 airs.
-
like lanny i always sit in the car and let the guy know the shift pattern etc. i've always done the driving and idle test at the kent station and never had a problem ,passed every year.
if anyone wants to know how i set mine up with a LM1 for aircare let me know,it is real easy.i run dellortos but the process is the same as you only need to worry about 2 steady states of tune .steady idle and steady 2000 rpm loaded area in second.
o.k alan time we made your 11 sec pump gas monster aircare friendly :D
good topic for a chat .
lanny by chance did you drive the car in 4th at say about 2200 rpm ?and check your A/F ratio on the LM1
-
congratulations! That is only the second time I have heard of IDAs passing aircare.
Does that include mine? It was a few years ago but ....1904cc's , k8 , 8.8:1 , 37vents , 3rd progression hole , 55 idles ..........nothing I did with the main circuit had any affect at aircare.
btw congrats Lanny
-
AirCare is Bullshit,
I Bet 100 bucks that if Lanny goes through again it will fail, ( It was his lucky Day )
2 Words,
\"Territory Zed\"
:o
-
Hooray Lanny!
Alan and Darren,
Thanks for the confidence... not.
I have to take my car through AirScam soon. Wish me luck.
-
Jason, you will have more luck messing with the idle cct than the main jet. Post your VIN, I can have a look at it.
My reg. number is 0473582
http://www.aircare.ca/ (http://www.aircare.ca/)
Thanks Bruce. Any help would be welcome.
-
There is something everyone can do to help themselves. One of the parameters (CO I think) is based loosely on your engine size. I noticed on Lanny's and Jason's results that they both have engine sizes on their reports larger than what came in their cars. By changing to the correct size, you will gain a couple of ticks of headroom on the cutoff numbers. The gain is not much, but who here hasn't heard of someone failing by .01 or .02%? Changing the engine size is totally legit in Aircare's eyes. This trick was told to me by an upper official at Aircare.
For you 67 nerds, your Bug originally had a 1493cc engine. Although called the 1500, Aircare allows you to truncate the displacement. Have your car's engine changed to 1.4 liters. Same goes for you, Jason.
Darren can change his to 1.2 liters since a 66 originally had a 1285cc engine. Alan gets to use 1.1 liters because of the 1192cc engine. That's as good as it gets Gavin, a 25hp engine at 1131ccs only lets you use 1.1 liters. 70s cars can use 1.5 liters (1584ccs).
Jason, what did you change on the engine from last year? Your driving CO was about perfect last year, and is now really rich. Did you change the idle jet?
-
The AF showed 13.9-14.2.
For you guys with an O2 sensor, this is what you are shooting for. The actual number isn't that important, what got Lanny through was the really narrow range of readings while being tested. You can watch for this without going through Aircare.
-
There is something everyone can do to help themselves. One of the parameters (CO I think) is based loosely on your engine size. I noticed on Lanny's and Jason's results that they both have engine sizes on their reports larger than what came in their cars. By changing to the correct size, you will gain a couple of ticks of headroom on the cutoff numbers.
So stating your engine size is smaller than actaul gains you some ticks? Seems backwards, I guess if you have a smaller engine, less overall emissions, therefore higher allowed %???
-
It is something to do with the fact that Aircare measures %, whereas originally when your car entered Canada, Transport Canada measured g/mile. If you compared a VW to a big-ass station wagon with a BB engine, the big car will puke out more g/mile than a tiny Bug engine. So to better simulate the original spec, smaller engines are allowed to have a higher %. Their smaller size will mean a lower overall emissions package. This is why the big V8s had to all have catalytic converters when new, but a Bug was able to get by without.
-
i've gone through as a 1600 cc motor with a 2275 at 10.6 ;1 compression.
mechanically sound motor,good state of tune ,no magic will get you through every time.reguardless of engine size it all balances out
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.shaw.ca%2Fchoptop%2Fjimscar%2FPICT0260.JPG&hash=f6c9918b353f27f3a8a9c92aa1cd518003b90f5f)
-
AirCare is Bullshit,
I Bet 100 bucks that if Lanny goes through again it will fail, ( It was his lucky Day )
2 Words,
"Territory Zed"
:o
:D :D :D :D :D
-
I hope this aircare system does not migrate to Alberta any time soon. We are required to have an insurance inspection every ten years and that's it. We can also by-pass that inspection, if we have the vehicle appraised as a vintage or classic...
Neil.
-
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.shaw.ca%2Fchoptop%2Fjimscar%2FPICT0260.JPG&hash=f6c9918b353f27f3a8a9c92aa1cd518003b90f5f)
Wow, you guys with your early cars have such GENEROUSLY HIGH limits!
Jim, what was the A/F ratio when you scored that 2.83% CO?
-
Jason, what did you change on the engine from last year? Your driving CO was about perfect last year, and is now really rich. Did you change the idle jet?
No. All I've changed between last years pass and this years fails is points, plugs, condensor, cap, rotor and oil.
-
Have you changed the fuel pump? do a fuel pressure check or at least check to see that there is not any fuel dribbling or driping from the main cirquit at idle.
Gary.
-
Wow, you guys with your early cars have such GENEROUSLY HIGH limits!
Jim, what was the A/F ratio when you scored that 2.83% CO?
i believe these are the cut points for all 1600,they seam quite resonable to me as well,over 5% co is quite allot and the hc cut points are not that tight either.if your car can't pass within these limits ,something is wrong with the motor or state of tune,
bruce i had talked to lanny a while back and i was happy to hear hey targeted the same numbers i had mentionedto him.
the fist time i went to aircare which was in fact the second day i had my car on the road [primered]i drove out the highway to the richmond centre . passed both idle co and hc ,passed driving hc but failed driving co.main thing is i recorder the results and noted them.while on the dyno the lmi was reading 10.9 a/f ratio and the car was turning 2400 rpm.on my way back home i noticed for me in 5th gear at 2400 rpm i had the exact a/f ratio and at idle i was at 13.0 a/f ratio.
pulled over replaced the idle jet from a 70 to a 67 and the idle co changed to 13.9 a/f and in 5th gear at 2400 rpm it was 14.0 a/f ratio.i drove the car home and it felt allot better /crisper when accelerating .went to the air care centre on kent and those are the results .now realising a aircooled performance motor needs more fuel for cooling i have replaced the 67 idle jets to about a 68-69 this gives me a cruise a/f ratio of 13.1 and i idle at 12.9 a/f ratio even with this richer idle mixture my car still passed no problem this year with the results i posted in another thread.
biggest tip =target two rpm ranges ,idle and 2000 rpm .
your car only is running off the idle jet in both these ranges ,set you idle a/f ratio at mid to upper 13's ,then check your cruise 2000 rpm and note your a/f ratio ,that will be set by either a increase or decrease in idle jet size,also reseting your idle mixture will have a small effect on cruise a/f ratio as there will still be a few drops coming out the idle inlet while the majority will be out the progression ports.
-
Jim, the cutoffs for later cars are much tighter than earlier cars. This is because the original standards issued by Transport Canada were tighter the newer you get. Here's what I have to deal with:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The AirCare standards for a 1975 passenger car with a curb weight of 890 kg., and an engine displacement of 1.5 litres are as follows:
Driving Mode HC Standard: 376 parts per million
Driving Mode CO Standard: 3.29 percent
Driving Mode NOx Standard: 4024 parts per million
Idle Mode HC Standard: 480 parts per million
Idle Mode CO Standard: 5.21 percent
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lanny's passing grade of 772ppm of HC at idle wouldn't pass in my car.
Here are the specs for a 67 Bug:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
The AirCare standards for a 1967 passenger car with a curb weight of 860 kg., and an engine displacement of 1.4 litres are as follows:
Driving Mode HC Standard: 562 parts per million
Driving Mode CO Standard: 6.78 percent
Driving Mode NOx Standard: 5559 parts per million
Idle Mode HC Standard: 1060 parts per million
Idle Mode CO Standard: 5.61 percent
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
For driving HC and idle CO, these are double what I am allowed. Note that your car beats the numbers for a 75 Bug.
Here's the link to what the cutoffs are:
http://www.aircare.ca/index.php?inspinfo-standards.php (http://www.aircare.ca/index.php?inspinfo-standards.php)
Not only is the engine size a factor, so is the weight. I don't know if you can change the weight of the car since they get that info off your insurance papers.
I also found out that the dyno test that is done in 2nd gear at 40km/h is the equivalent to a 3% grade. Your 5th gear test is probably a good match.
-
Not only is the engine size a factor, so is the weight. I don't know if you can change the weight of the car since they get that info off your insurance papers.
Well, that's an excellent point. My vehicle registraion states my car weighs 1200kg. My sales brochure says it weighs 1918 pounds (870 kg).
Thus, the standards for my car should be:
Driving Mode HC Standard: 433 parts per million
Driving Mode CO Standard: 5.08 percent
Driving Mode NOx Standard: 4633 parts per million
Idle Mode HC Standard: 1056 parts per million
Idle Mode CO Standard: 5.58 percent
It would have squeaked through this year on my first try.
I think I'm going to call ICBC.
-
If you can't get it fixed on Tues, let me know, I have a contact that will take care of it.
-
bruce i think those cutoff points are taken into acount with pollution devices,ie catalyst etc.i think that is the difference.if you can prove that your car came without such devices aircare in burnaby can alter your cutoff points.
we do this all the time with cars brought over from germany .
-
You are talking about private imports, right?
It doesn't help me because as far as they are concerned, I removed the stock FI and EGR. They have no sympathy if your car is tampered with. That is why there is no repair limit for 92 and newer cars. As far as they are concerned, since we got the Aircare program in 92, if you tampered with the smog equipment, you knew you were creating problems.
I know Aircare will try to accomodate private imports that don't have CDN spec emissions equipment. I heard about a guy who had a Vanagon he brought from Germany that had a carburated Type 1 1600 DP engine -- stock!
-
Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet but here it is anyways. If your car failed anything on the driving portion of the test, here is a tip. Between october and april if you have even one studded snow tire on your car (drive wheels) it can not be driven on the dyno. Therefore idle test only. Hope this helps someone.
-
Well, mine passed, and here's how.
First off, I immediately went down to my local Autoplan agent with my registration and my original owner's handbook. I showed both to the guy and explained that when my car was registered the agent mistook the gross vehicle weight (1200 kg) for the net vehicle weight (870kg), and I'd like him to correct the error. He looks at me dubiously like I'm trying to put one over on him, and barely glances at the owner's hand book. But he calls ICBC to ask. When he gets off the phone he tells me I have to take the car to a weigh station on the highway and get a weight ticket. I remind him that my car is now un-insured and I already have proof from the manufacturer (in the form of my owner's manual) of what the car weighs. He says \"doesn't matter\".
Just then his manager comes back from lunch. She's been selling me insurance for a few years and remembers me and my car (she had a boyfriend that used to have a Ghia), and is always sympathetic as I spend about $5K a year on insurance with her for our various household vehicles. She assesses the situation and carefully explains to the agent that proof is proof and, in the interest of customer service, he'd better stop acting like a dick and go ahead and change the weight on my papers. Done. So I buy a day permit, knowing that my maximum allowables just went up by, like, 20%.
BUT
I have a secret weapon.
A couple of years ago when it failed, I had taken this same car to Duane's German Autohaus, and told him if he would make it pass AirCare, I'd give him a bunch of money. He ended up hand-drilling me a teeny-tiny main jet that I carefully tucked away in my tool box. I slipped this jet into my carb and took it through AirCare on Saturday. The tech could barely get it to do the 40/kmh as the off-idle stumble was so bad, but by the time it was on the idle test he was already giving me the thumbs up while I was still in the waiting booth. (This same tech had failed my car both times last weekend, and apparently used to own a Type 181 Thing some years back).
The results speak for themselves:
Stock Main Jet, 25 August 2007
Driving HC = 167ppm
Driving CO = 5.26% (FAIL)
Driving NOx = 530ppm
Idle HC = 507ppm
Idle CO = 4.56%
Duane's Main Jet, 01 September 2007
Driving HC = 70ppm (lowered by 58%)
Driving CO = 0.14% (lowered by 97%)
Driving NOx = 1364ppm (up by 138%, but still just 29% of the maximum allowable)
Idle HC = 275ppm (lowered by 45%)
Idle CO = 1.77% (lowered by 62%)
(https://airspeedparts.com/forums/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.type-14.com%2Ftemp%2Fjets.jpg&hash=5205d5cfe7aaa5bf0ce43bcd958633cc17ff7677)
-
Jason, since Duane's jet caused driving problems, you are obviously not going to leave it in there, right? If you put the 120 back in, at 5+% CO it is too rich. By using a smaller main jet, you will not only get better mileage, you will have less chance of fouling plugs (and get longer plug life). You will also make more power with the smaller jet.
Do you have a 116 to try? The original 30 PICT-2 that came with your car came with a 116 and your experience at Aircare is proving it is the right size. Then next year you won't have to make any adjustments.
I may have one if you don't.
The jet Duane made for you may cause future fails at Aircare if you use it. At .14% it is far too lean. You run the risk of a lean misfire. If that happens during the test, it is an instant fail.
-
Yes, I've already put the 120 back in, and I will absolutely be re-jetting the carb. CIP offers a 6-jet kit that includes a 112.5 and a 115, but I'd like to find a 116 and a 117.5 as well, so I'm going to look around some more.
-
Initially I was going to suggest a 115, but then a quick look in the blue Bentley showed the correct one to be a 116. That's what will do the trick. I'll have a look-see if I have one.
-
Hey Bruce. Why is the main jet even having so much of an effect on Jasons readings? Could the testers be using second bear instead of third and using too many RPMs? Usually the main jet has very little effect on the readings. I had a beetle though on Saturday at the Surrey Station and they were in third gear the engine might have been turning 1200 RPM. Jason do you know what gear the guy was in when he was testing your car?
Gary
-
Hey Bruce. Why is the main jet even having so much of an effect on Jasons readings? Could the testers be using second bear instead of third and using too many RPMs? Usually the main jet has very little effect on the readings. I had a beetle though on Saturday at the Surrey Station and they were in third gear the engine might have been turning 1200 RPM. Jason do you know what gear the guy was in when he was testing your car?
Gary
biggest tip =target two rpm ranges ,idle and 2000 rpm .
your car only is running off the idle jet in both these ranges ,set you idle a/f ratio at mid to upper 13's ,then check your cruise 2000 rpm and note your a/f ratio ,that will be set by either a increase or decrease in idle jet size,also reseting your idle mixture will have a small effect on cruise a/f ratio as there will still be a few drops coming out the idle inlet while the majority will be out the progression ports.
-
Jason do you know what gear the guy was in when he was testing your car?
Gary
It just so happened I asked him. He did the driving test in 2nd gear.
-
The standard for the driving test is 2nd gear when doing the old method test, you can however request that they use 3rd gear, you must speak with the station manager before hand to arrange it. A friend of mine was a district manager for aircare previously and said that was the process.
-
I'm with you Gary. It is a mystery to me too. But the numbers don't lie. My thoughts are that a wimpy stock engine is at a greater % of it's total potential hp than bigger engines with dual carbs.
Chris is right, the test is supposed to be done in 2nd gear. Although I'm sure you can get them to do it in 3rd, that is a bad idea. Lugging the engine will cause the numbers to get worse, not better. I have seen the effects once with my old Super. Back to back tests, one in 2nd the other in 3rd. The 3rd gear tests showed much higher CO. Lugging the engine makes it run hotter, hotter makes it richer since the incoming air is expanded more. When it is expanded more, there's less oxygen mass per given volume of air, therefore richer.
According to the Aircare HO, the test must be done in 2nd. The testing stations are always worried they are going to blow up customer's cars, so sometimes they shift to 3rd.
If you see the guy shift it into 3rd, let it go. Then if it fails, demand they re-test it for FREE in 2nd gear. Let them know that you know the standard. Usually a threat to call Aircare HO is all they need to re-test. If they don't do it, just call Aircare HO, they will take care of it.