Author Topic: 911 Cooling (Read 7230 times)

Trevor P · « **on:** October 17, 2004, 09:21:28 AM »

I know a few of you guys out there are running the 911 fanshrouds. I have heard a lot of pros vs cons on the subject, but would like some peoples opinions on them who are currently running this setup. I have seen Jake Raby on the STF forum literally calling these things a waste of time cause he claims that they cook one side of the engine while freezing the other (on T1's) . Just interested in others real life experiences with this setup.

notchback · « **Reply #1 on:** October 17, 2004, 10:23:25 AM »

I would highly recommend this set-up. It cools the engine almost three times as much as a standard fanshroud system. As for the myth of only cooling one side , thats just a farce. Almost anyone around the vancouver area with a large motor runs one not only for the cooling but for the accessibility to the engine bay ie. the carbs. Hopefully this is helpful

Matt · « **Reply #2 on:** October 17, 2004, 06:26:25 PM »

I too read some of the stuff Jake Raby said. I don't know of him well enough to decide if he's blowing smoke up my ass or not. He does have quite the cult like following though.

jim martin · « **Reply #3 on:** October 17, 2004, 06:31:35 PM »

do you have a cooling problem?

Trevor P · « **Reply #4 on:** October 17, 2004, 06:34:07 PM »

Quote

do you have a cooling problem?

Nope, just weighing all the options before I choose my poison. My engine is \"naked\" and waiting for a setup. I just like to hear \"real world\" experiences before sinking in a whole buncha dough just to hear that someone already made that mistake.

Geoff · « **Reply #5 on:** October 21, 2004, 10:20:29 AM »

I have been running one since 1995 and no problems, I have had one most of my big engines and never seen a problem when i tear them down.

My motor used to detonate with the stock tin once i swaped to the 911 it ran cooler and no detonation.

my .02$

mike · « **Reply #6 on:** October 21, 2004, 10:55:17 AM »

I too have read Jake's ramblings of the 911 shroud and I'm just sick of hearing it. excuse my ignorance, but i think it's a way to push more of his DTMs.

Geoff, does your 911 shrouds clear the Mallory unilite?

Michael

red snapper · « **Reply #7 on:** October 21, 2004, 11:14:16 AM »

Not only do they look cool but it seems easier to work on the motor. One thing for sure is that its not a throw it on and there ya go kinda thing. There is lots of fitting and refitting again to be done. I to have heard stories from people like they rob horsepower where a doghouse style fan does not. I dont remember where I heard it from before but I heard it more than once. Thats my 2 cents worth. Good luck.

Geoff · « **Reply #8 on:** October 21, 2004, 11:23:20 AM »

Mike,
I have never tried a malory with it as I always ran the 009. I did have a customer mod the strap and stand so he could fit a Mag.

Trevor P · « **Reply #9 on:** November 11, 2004, 10:37:49 AM »

I've been in coversation with Jake about this subject, and he really has nothing good to say about the 911 setup. I have studied his test data, and noticed a lack of comparsion to the 911 kit. When I asked him about this he claimed that he has it, but hasn't released it yet,..at least not until Ultra VW mag, comes out with the tech article on his DTM kit.
I do see his point as far as the lack of internal vanes to direct airflow in the 911 style shroud, but I'm still not sold on the DTM's. Not only that, they are Fugly! (yes I know \"looks\" don't cool an engine)

Ah screw it...maybe I should justy stick to the old tried and true doghouse fanshroud and hope I never have to tune the 48's!...yeah right ^_^

dannyboy · « **Reply #10 on:** November 11, 2004, 12:09:58 PM »

if your going to go stock style cooling, get the 36hp/doghouse shroud, its not THAT bad to work on.

Trevor P · « **Reply #11 on:** November 11, 2004, 03:39:00 PM »

Problem is Dan the experiences I have had with the aftermarket 36hp style shrouds have been pretty poor. They don't cool as well as the orig. geniune VW doghouse setup.

PS. I talked to Darren about the manifolds,...and I gotta get some money to you for them.

dannyboy · « **Reply #12 on:** November 11, 2004, 03:57:37 PM »

which brand shrouds have you used??
there are some major differences

Matt · « **Reply #13 on:** November 11, 2004, 03:58:17 PM »

Sounds to me he wants Ultravw to sell some of his DTM kits for him before he releases all of his info. A little one-sided, but whatever it takes to make a dollar huh?

Trevor P · « **Reply #14 on:** November 11, 2004, 04:28:56 PM »

Quote

which brand shrouds have you used??
there are some major differences

Can't remember, it's been awhile, but I think it was either Empi crap or Bugscrap...err I mean Bugpack.
Which one are you referring to?

Bubba · « **Reply #15 on:** November 11, 2004, 09:18:59 PM »

I purchased one of Jakes type 1 DTM kits because I will be using Superflow heads on the street/strip motor and need the extra cooling. It's true, it is kinda ugly but with the engineering and testing gone into this unit, I figured I would give it a go. Should have it all together by early spring. Maybe I will take a few pics and post them during trial assembly/fitting.

dannyboy · « **Reply #16 on:** November 12, 2004, 07:48:50 AM »

correct me if im wrong but when jake was doing all his tests the dtm was beat by a type one stock shroud.... maybe something has changed that i havent heard about???

Geoff · « **Reply #17 on:** November 12, 2004, 09:05:27 AM »

Yeah if i remember correct it was a Cheapo 36hp shroud that beat it.
Last time I checked the 911 motor had no vanes either(they do have a vane on the back of the alt, I used it on mine by triming it to fit the T1 911 shroud.)

James Buchan · « **Reply #18 on:** November 12, 2004, 09:22:20 AM »

Yes it was beat by an aftermarket 36hp shroud - which he would not tell anyone where it was from as then they could go and purchase the best working system.

Jake Raby · « **Reply #19 on:** November 15, 2004, 06:35:06 AM »

First off..

The reason I have held the data from the 911 cooling system testing is simple. The fellows at Ultra VW have been nice enough to agree to post all my findings with all the testing. The ARTICLE WILL NOT EVEN MENTION MY DTM! Not at all! How is that for fair and balanced? The Ultra VW articles will be out sometime soon and will tell the tale as accurately as possible. Until then I am refraining from posting the data on the 911 and other aftermarket systems because it would not be fair to the publishing mag to do so.

I spent 21 THOUSAND dollars of MY OWN MONEY to get these results.. Show me one more individual that has any data that proves anything different. at this point it is mere speculation on everyones behalf except for my own as to the effectiveness of the 911 cooling system.

The 911 system is often used by those who think that a mass amount of air is the key to proper cooling rather than the correct amount of air that is diverted and sped up to the most critical parts of the engine and that is by far the exhaust ports! In my testing the 911 system was ineffective. It ran uneven head temps as well as successfully pulled 8 to sometimes 11 HP more than any radial fan kit and thats mostly just due to the air not having a way out of the shroud/engine that is MUCH smaller than the 911 engine it was intended for. I tested EVERY 911 system available to my knowledge for the TI engine, some were worse than others.

The stock system was hard to beat, but one certain (no longer available) 36HP shroud did beat it. In my DTM testing in the final rounds all I had to do was beat this one system and it took me 8 months to do so. This was not any normal 36HP shroud, the other 4-5 I tested as well as the centermount sucked worse than the 911.

Call ANY manufacturer of ANY cooling system and ask thenm for their data and you'kl gget no answer because they have ZERO! I have spent the time and spent the money to create something that worksand have proven that. To date I have sold 16 of my DTM systems to guys that had 911 shrouds and 6 of these to ONE PERSON who had repeated cooling issues with the #4 cylinder that was only found after repeated cracks through the chambers of that cylinder unexplained. The DTM has cured this persons issues with his fleet of rental buggies in Mexico!

If you don't believe my testing- Fine. However if you don't have your own data be glad that atleast someone has spent their time and money to do these tests. I post realities and I'm not a huge company that is trying to sell 5 million of these and get rich. I want to create the best products imaginable thoroughly tested and proven and mainly so I can help the customer choose the right fan and drive ratio for their engine based on my dyno and road testing.

You can't argue till you have your own data and I challenge anyone here to gather that data. If yoiu wish to do so open your wallet and say goodbye. At the same time say good bye to your nights and weekends for MONTHS..... All to have a bunch of people doubt everything you say just because they are speculating. Its alot of fun- try it and see. Hell I even had verifiers here watching the tests so things would be fair!

BTW, Tell me who stated the 911 superior in the beginning and where their data is! Alot of mine is posted- who are they and where is theirs??

James Buchan · « **Reply #20 on:** November 15, 2004, 08:14:21 AM »

Hey Jake - glad to see you found our little corner of the web.

Cameron · « **Reply #21 on:** November 15, 2004, 08:27:36 AM »

Okay Trevor! There is the answer to your question. Buy the copy of Ultra VW magazine, with Jake's test results. You'll get the story \"right from the horse's mouth\".

And Jake! Thanks for posting!

Billyisgr8 · « **Reply #22 on:** November 15, 2004, 09:46:17 AM »

Welcome Jake

I'm sure some people who have the 911 shroud don't have a cylinder head temp guage, to really see what they are running for head temps. I know with the T4 I had with a DTM I watched the cylinder head temp guage like a hawk, and I never saw more than 350 degrees under the longest hills here ( coquhalla snowshead doing 90mph at the top). Have I ever had a head temp guage on any other engine.....NO.... Nothing ever had happened before so what I had must have worked before I had a temp guage. I think this may be the mentality of some people who have a 911 fan shroud. Nothing has ever gone wrong in stop and go traffic, it stoped detonation over a stock shroud , so it must work .

Back to back tests to prove cylinder head temps is a great comparison between systems, I for one appreciate all the work you have done, and the sugestions you have given me over the years. At least someone is willing to spend there own money to do comparisons.

Keep it up Jake.

Kevin

Matt · « **Reply #23 on:** November 15, 2004, 09:59:08 AM »

Well it seems to me that alot of folk were in favor of the 911 kit, in this thread alone, until Jake posted. all of a sudden the table has turned? I have not run either on a dyno test, I have not spent 21,000 either on testing for data I can't lay down in front of people.
All we have is what you have to say about your kit, and any business that would say their kit isn't the best wouldn't be in business for long. I hear you say over and over again about spending your own money, and that noone else has the data to prove/disprove a certain cooling system. Well we didn't spend the money, nor do we have the data. When is that issue to hit newstands??

Matt

Bubba · « **Reply #24 on:** November 15, 2004, 10:26:30 PM »

Porsche...mmm...looks good, built by Porsche...must be good...

Boost_Retard · « **Reply #25 on:** December 29, 2004, 09:22:15 AM »

I Love the looks of a 911 shroud..and think a nice carbon fiber peice would fit my motor quite well..i do have my doubts with the system.

although i know little about the DTM
(and dont really need to know anything about it as i have never had a overheating problem with my CHROME 36HP shroud)

And i have nothing but speculation to back me up..

Ya look at an Air cooled motor..you have cast iron cylinders..aluminum heads..Hot exhaust ports..and a definite path to where the cooling air must be directed in order to be most effective in removing heat from the engine..

every stock bug shroud i have seen has had vanes inside the shroud..they were put there for good reason..they get the air to where it needs to go..with the drive ratio and size of the fan given.

Now I look at a 911 shroud..and think..if i set it up so that the 911 fan was actually a beetle fan (say late dog house style) the CFM of the dog house fan MUST be less than the 911
(although i dont know how much less..)
And i would figure..that the beetle fan(or one that moved the same ammout of air) in a 911 shroud would do a very poor job of cooling the motor....Not because the fan itself cant move enough air to get the job done (works in dog house shroud) but that the 911 shroud does a poor job of directing the air to where it needs to be to get the job done.

and i FIGURE the 911 shroud works for others only because it packs so much air into the motor it has no choice but to run cold..but in my oppinion..cold is BAD...heads and cyls dont want to be cold..they just dont want to be hot..and given the design of the parts..it appears to me that one would need the air direction to make the most effective use of the cooling air..and to keep the heads and cyls cooled together..although not at the same rate (more air in the hotter spots..less in the colder).. i dunno if that makes any sence..but it does to me..

Thats just my thinking..
One thing i do know is that i have a turbo charged (HEAT) 2007 and when i drive it i drive the piss outa it..all i use is a 36HP CHROME shroud..stock dog house cooler..aftermarket dual port chrome tin..
and have NEVER had anything close to an over heating problem..head temps stay under 300 (although i dont trust the gauge) and my oil temps are always within reason..

it works. 100% tested by myself

i would really like to get my hands on some real test #s though..as this has always been a subject that interests me.

D-S-R
Cale

Hansk · « **Reply #26 on:** December 31, 2004, 02:38:46 AM »

Hmm ..... Ya got me thinking. When you say ...\".hot exhuast ports , directing air where it needs to be , different rates of cooling for hot and cold spots \" I think you might be on to something. It makes sence to me. A 911 motor has it's exhaust ports out the bottom of the head as do type 4 's . I can very much imagin this would have a very different effect on the way heat is transferd into the head and what is needed to cool it. It seems to me that the stock type 1 VW cooling is designed to cool a type 1 Vw head but the 911 set up may be a better choice for a type 4 conversion.
I don't really know , I guess I'm just thinking for me....If it aint broke ...don't fix it. My stock doghouse kept my type 1 heads below 300f for the most part. Ofcourse not all motors are based on type 1 heads and something different will be needed to cool them. It's good to know that someone is working on that too.

Scratchy · « **Reply #27 on:** December 31, 2004, 04:21:48 PM »

Cale,

Are you SURE your gauges are reading CORRECTLY ? :lol: :blush: :lol:

Bruce · « **Reply #28 on:** January 02, 2005, 02:39:14 PM »

Quote

You can't argue till you have your own data and I challenge anyone here to gather that data.

Geoff has already stated his \"data\":

\"My motor used to detonate with the stock tin once i swaped to the 911 it ran cooler and no detonation.\"

I remember when Geoff first installed his 911 fan. He said his engine would ping all the way up the Cut with a stock shroud, so bad he had to ease way back on the throttle. Installing the 911 fan completely eliminated his pinging at all throttle settings all the way up the Cut.

Boost_Retard · « **Reply #29 on:** January 02, 2005, 03:33:09 PM »

LOL hehe my gauges seem to be doing allright..

I have NO idea how close they are to the real deal..but if one day its 100

Author Topic: 911 Cooling (Read 7230 times)

Matt

Matt

Billyisgr8

Matt