Author Topic: Time for some bench-racing - 1600 build options?  (Read 2456 times)

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Offline owdlvr

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Time for some bench-racing - 1600 build options?
« on: November 10, 2008, 12:43:40 PM »
Alrighty, so I'm doing what most of us likely do in the fall...I'm looking at the winter repair/upgrade budget trying to decide where to spend the bucks.

The '69 had this gift for me, which has lead me to believe an engine refresh might be a good idea!



Now, to be fair, I put the magnetic drain plug into an engine with unknown number of miles, etc. etc. For all I know that was all just sitting in the bottom of the pan. I've only done two changes since putting the magnetic plug in, and both have come out looking like that.

So the purpose of this post is to ask those who are more familiar with the VW performance options then I am, what I should do. I'm know the first question is going to be "what's the budget?"...and for that I don't have an an answer. I'm concerned with keeping the budget low, but if I need a particular item, I will either make the funds available for it, or put the motor build on hold until I have the funds. Having said that, I am also aware from my rally car that these things are _always_ more money then you plan for. If I plan on the block being good (for instance), it will probably be shot and there goes another $500 to the build. So while we might come up with a build value of X, I won't be tearing down until I have X+Extra.

What I've currently got:
Suspect I've got an OE spec 1600 dual port with standard VW heads and internals. I'm basing this assumption of the power levels as compared to my '75 and dad's '79...both of which are OE stock. I'm also considering how the rest of the repairs/upgrades were made to the car by previous owners. Car is running a 34-Pict 3 carb and 009 distributor. Engine serial is AH128643.

What I'm looking for:
I'm looking to stick with a stock 1600 dual port, but make it strong and reliable for the hooning I do. Long distance events like the Beetleball, track days and plenty of spirited driving. I only bought the car in late June, and I've put 11,500 miles on it. I'm out to drive the car! I have a couple of future race events I'd like to enter the car in, so my hands are tied by the rules I have to follow...

The rules

- Engine Block: must be OES (Original Equipment Stock). A maximum of 0.040 overbore is permitted.
- Heads: Must be OES.
- Crankshaft, Pistons, Rods, Rings and Bearings camshafts, valve rockers, retainers, valve springs etc. Clutch and flywheel must be OES.
- Carburetors may be changed if configuration and number of barrels are OES.
- Exhaust System - Must be OES until the exit of the exhaust manifold. Then it's free.
- Ignition - Must be OES. Spark plugs and wires are free. Mechanical timing and dist must be retained.
- Engine lubrication - Lubrication systems must be OES type, but oil coolers, engine pre-oilers and oil accumulators may be added. Accusump type systems maybe used.

OES is defined as "all the original equipment parts and specificantions, or the exact equivalent replacement parts and specifications, which could have been purchased on that 'production vehicle'.  So, it doesn't have to be a "Volkswagen" branded part, as long as it's built to the equivalent specification of the OE part. A Mahle piston of the OE design, for instance, would be fine.

So, with your hands tied as tightly behind your back as the above, how would you build it up? What brands would you use, and what machining would you have done?

-Dave 'if this was an Audi, I'd be done already'






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'71 Type 1 - Rally Car Project
'75 Type 1 - Heirloom
'95 F150 - Unfortunate daily driver...

Offline egspot

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Re: Time for some bench-racing - 1600 build options?
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2008, 01:17:11 PM »
I am by no means  a DVKK member nor an expert but have gone through the process so here is my two bits:

A maximum of 0.040 overbore is permitted. ...Too much I think. You do not want to build on a weaker block.

It looks like you are going stock for the most part. Aside from machining which you will need some anyway the difference between a reliable 1600 and a reliable 1776 or 1914 are not that much in terms of cash however, you could at the least increase you hp by about 1/3 (with as much as a single 40 kadron on a 1914.)

I was told that the moving parts must be balanced and preferably replaced as many moving parts as you can (lifters, cam, pistons and cylinders, etc.)

Remember that your engine will only be as good as the weakest link on it.

The good news is that a lot of guys have purchased and stored a lot of the parts you may need and they have abandoned their plans to build. That could mean some savings for you.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2008, 02:07:06 PM by egspot »

Offline owdlvr

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Re: Time for some bench-racing - 1600 build options?
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2008, 02:00:23 PM »
0.040 overbore on the block refers to the cylinders on a traditional water-cooled block. So basically I can swap out for new pistons/cylinders that are 86.5mm, no bigger.

I think you've pretty much nailed it though. I'm essentially looking at a completely stock 1600, so the exercise is more in where the money is best spent, and what brands I should be looking at putting in. Since we're so limited by what we can do parts wise, everything is definitely going to be balanced properly. If you're going to build a stock displacement engine, might as well make it the best you can!

Ideally I would go with a 1641 or a 1776, but that isn't an option based on the rules.

-Dave
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'71 Type 1 - Rally Car Project
'75 Type 1 - Heirloom
'95 F150 - Unfortunate daily driver...

Offline Bruce

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Re: Time for some bench-racing - 1600 build options?
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2008, 11:40:31 PM »
If that's the way it is written, there's LOTS of room to make more hp.

*I think Geoff came across some 86 and 86.5mm overbore pistons many years ago.  I don't know if he still has them today.  I've seen them in Mexico, where they bore out old worn out 85.5 cylinders.  If you don't want to go this route, I can set you up with some genuine VW high compression pistons and cylinders.  Compression = hp, and these are stock parts!
*Stock heads, port them!  Plenty of hp to be gained there.
*Take your stock VW cam and have it ground for more duration and lift.
*CB sells 1.25:1 rockers that are machined from stock VW rocker blanks.  They'll never be able to tell.
*It says you must use stock valve springs.  Doesn't say you can't add a smaller one inside the stock one.
*The way I read the exhaust rule is that you can use anything you want, as long as you use the stock heaterboxes.  Then replace the heaterboxes with stock size J tubes.
*You can modify the stock distributor to work exactly like an aftermarket 009.
*Even though it doesn't say anything about adding a spin-on filter, I think that's because every other car in the class already has one.  You should be able to add one without penalty.


Offline 52 split

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Re: Time for some bench-racing - 1600 build options?
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2008, 08:53:05 PM »
are you only allowed a 1600 motor or is it a 4cly class?,if so put a stock 2000 cc type 4 in. you can make your own cooling tin and use all your current type 1 cooling shroud, alt etc.very low cost it will mate to your gear box with no grinding of bell houseings using a 210 t-4 flwwheel with pilot bearing pressed into the flywheel, and the pilot bearing in the t4crank removed for the output shaft to mate up.if not then you should consult a good crank grinder and have your stock crank offset ground to bring up your cc to 1600, a stock motor is not a true 1600 some where around 1585cc i think,  cheers

Offline owdlvr

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Re: Time for some bench-racing - 1600 build options?
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2008, 12:19:31 AM »
I figure I best take CIP up on their 15% offer and order up an engine rebuild kit for my 1600 DP ('69 bug).

I'm at the point where I don't really care about building a 'stock' engine to meet the rules, heck...if I actually get around to entering Targa, rebuilding a new motor for it will be the smallest part of the budget! My goals remain the same, a reliable 'stock-looking' dual-port, but I'll ignore the 'factory OES parts requirements for now. Reliability, 'oe-look', budget and power would be my priority list (in order).

I've been looking at the following engine rebuild kit:  http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5000&CartID=1. I'll be running the 34-Pict-3 carb and factory distributor for now (or 009, I have both...haven't tried the vac-advance yet). No plans to go dual carb, an important point to this build.

- 84mm 1641 Piston and Cylinder Set
- 4340 forged & CW crank -> theory being always buy the best you can afford, it's in budget, and useful should I decide to go bigger down the road.
- Rods -> I can afford both the I-beam or H-beam options. Would either be needed?
- Cam -> I can afford a cam & gear, would any make sense using a stock carb/intake?
- Lifters -> Suggestions to match your suggested cam?

Heads will be stock, but ported. I'll need suggestions on rockers and springs, since I don't need to stick to the 'OE' items anymore. Exhaust is probably going to be the Abarth muffler Dad gave me.

Looking forward to suggestions...

-Dave
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'71 Type 1 - Rally Car Project
'75 Type 1 - Heirloom
'95 F150 - Unfortunate daily driver...

Offline egspot

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Re: Time for some bench-racing - 1600 build options?
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2008, 06:53:02 AM »
I figure I best take CIP up on their 15% offer and order up an engine rebuild kit for my 1600 DP ('69 bug).


I've been looking at the following engine rebuild kit:  http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=ACC-C10-5000&CartID=1. I'll be running the 34-Pict-3 carb and factory distributor for now (or 009, I have both...haven't tried the vac-advance yet). No plans to go dual carb, an important point to this build.

- 84mm 1641 Piston and Cylinder Set
- 4340 forged & CW crank -> theory being always buy the best you can afford, it's in budget, and useful should I decide to go bigger down the road.
- Rods -> I can afford both the I-beam or H-beam options. Would either be needed?
- Cam -> I can afford a cam & gear, would any make sense using a stock carb/intake?
- Lifters -> Suggestions to match your suggested cam?

Heads will be stock, but ported. I'll need suggestions on rockers and springs, since I don't need to stick to the 'OE' items anymore. Exhaust is probably going to be the Abarth muffler Dad gave me.

Looking forward to suggestions...

-Dave


I am by no means  a DVKK member nor an expert...

1-Your 69 was an original 1500cc.

2- a 1641cc is 87mm (not 84mm) and you would need the block machined. While you are at it, you have the choice to go a bit bigger on displacemnt (say 90.5mm for 1776cc and FYI i have a NEW set for 100)

3- Rods, you can probably use stock ones.

4- cam and lifters, should match your application and if you are staying with "34-Pict-3 carb and factory distributor " , the porting of the heads and more agressive cam and lifters would be a waste of money (I think.) If you do go for the porting job and a performance cam and lifters you should at the least get a single Kadron 40 or a similar size weber with another distributor (009?)

Hope you get more feedback from others with more experience. :)

Offline owdlvr

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Re: Time for some bench-racing - 1600 build options?
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2008, 09:41:29 AM »
Quote
I am by no means  a DVKK member nor an expert...

1-Your 69 was an original 1500cc.

Correct, but before I bought the car a 1600 DP was installed.

Quote
2- a 1641cc is 87mm (not 84mm) and you would need the block machined. While you are at it, you have the choice to go a bit bigger on displacemnt (say 90.5mm for 1776cc and FYI i have a NEW set for 100)

Whoops! Typo. The 87mm set shouldn't require machining the block, and I would think I would need to consider dual carbs to use a 1776 setup?

Quote
3- Rods, you can probably use stock ones.

4- cam and lifters, should match your application and if you are staying with "34-Pict-3 carb and factory distributor " , the porting of the heads and more agressive cam and lifters would be a waste of money (I think.) If you do go for the porting job and a performance cam and lifters you should at the least get a single Kadron 40 or a similar size weber with another distributor (009?)

Hope you get more feedback from others with more experience.

Thanks for the feedback on the port and cam, I'd likely port it regardless...no reason why a new carb can't be put into the winter budget. Just can't be put in the December budget!

-Dave
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'71 Type 1 - Rally Car Project
'75 Type 1 - Heirloom
'95 F150 - Unfortunate daily driver...

Offline Bruce

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Re: Time for some bench-racing - 1600 build options?
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2008, 11:25:43 PM »
I wouldn't use 87s.  At 1.5mm less bore, the wall thickness suffers.  85.5s are much more robust.
A very slight porting job on the heads will give you hp.  Too big and you lose bottom end torque.
Absolutely do not change your connecting rods.  The stock rods are good to well over 300hp, so you would be wasting your $ if you bought new ones.
I would use aftermarket HD single valve springs.  Then use the CB 1.25 rockers that are machined from stock rockers.
Stick with the stock cam.