Author Topic: Cannot move shifter knob into 3rd or 4th positions when bus is moving (Read 9420 times)

kinggeorge13 · « **on:** March 29, 2019, 08:13:36 PM »

I have a 1973 bus that has a 2000cc engine and 6 rib 091 transmission that I assume were transplanted into this bus at the same time and from the same donor (engine code GD). I bought it DOA and it's had it share of problems but the engine is finally going pretty good, replaced transmission fluid (same as I've done several times previously on other buses) and engine oil filter/strainer-clean, etc. Transmission fluid was a fairly darkish brown. The clutch cable looks quite new and I'm assuming it was longer than needed because there is something like 5 large nuts between the clutch lever and the large wing nut. Ok, enough background.

So here is the problem. Engine off, it easily shifts into each forward gear and reverse. Engine on and bus sitting on driveway, I can shift into any forward gear and reverse and can feel the shift
knob "click in" just like I would expect it to when it finds the right place. Letting out the clutch oh-so-slightly engages in all gears and starts to move the bus (i.e. I did not want to stall the engine trying 4th gear sitting on my driveway) just as I would expect. Now the fun begins. 1st test drive. 1st gear is great and I'm onto the road. Speed up a little and into 2nd gear no problem. Speed up some more and I can feel the excitement........until I try to go into 3rd. It does not grind or anything, it just refuses to move the shifter knob into the 3rd gear position that it clicked into when sitting on the driveway running (bus stationary). Back to neutral and try again. No go. Just for the heck of it I try 4th gear. No go. It won't allow me to put the shifter knob all the way to where I would expect it to feel it click in. I pull over as I now am building up a small line of vehicles behind me. I come to a full stop and as I sit there on the side of the road, I try all the gear positions again (vehicle stationary). Yep, 1st through 4th they all nicely "click" into position (clutch pushed in, of course). So I head out again: 1st gear great. Moving on down the road. 2nd gear great. 3rd gear, nope! 4th gear, nope! So I stop again. Went through this exercise 4 times just to truly convince myself I was not just missing where this bus particularly needs it's shifter to go for 3rd and 4th and each time I was stopped, they went in fine. It does not grind. It just won't let me get my shift knob into the right position for those two gears while the vehicle is moving. Only when it's not moving. If the vehicle is moving, the shifter knob will not move fully into the position I expect it to. When the vehicle is stopped (engine running), it goes into each no problem. Again, if I'm sitting still and put it into 3rd and super-slowly/gently let up the clutch pedal so as not to suddenly stall the engine, the clutch engages and the car begins to move forward, just as I would expect.

I'm still researching lots but figured I'd through it out there in case one of you transmission-knowledgeable folks read this and say "hey, I know exactly what that is, you have to do "this". So far I have not found another example of this situation I can read up on.

Thanks!
-George

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #1 on:** March 29, 2019, 10:33:22 PM »

I'll guess it's a bad shift coupler, misadjusted shift stop plate or maybe a bad engine mount or three, something is moving while under way enough to change the position of the shift rod in relation to the trans.

That 091/2.0 unit is longer than the 002/1700 by a hair, how were the front mounts and shift rod or shifter modified to make up for that?

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #2 on:** March 30, 2019, 05:31:36 AM »

I'm also wondering if my clutch cable is set right and if maybe it needs tightening just a little. Possible while driving (moving) that the clutch is just barely touching/engaging and that is stopping me from getting into those two gears? It's only when the wheels are turning that the problem occurs. I'm having some trouble getting my head around exactly what is different with the wheels turning and not turning to cause this to happen. I've read a bunch of posts and still am but not any yet that are quite the situation I'm experiencing.

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 30, 2019, 08:07:27 AM »

Modified the subject line to make it a little clearer and added a little clearer description of the problem and how/when it occurs.

pittwagen · « **Reply #4 on:** March 30, 2019, 08:29:43 AM »

Are you absolutely sure you have a 73 Bus. If I am not mistaken and from the pictures you posted I see a round external gas cap on the rear right and no flapper door for access to the 73 gas cap. Further, the ECU and air box mounts look awfully original and not something cut in or welded to the rear inner area above the battery tray area. Do all 4 VIN numbers on the body match? Might help to resolve the issue of mismatched parts or worn originals.

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #5 on:** March 30, 2019, 09:08:46 AM »

Quote from: pittwagen on March 30, 2019, 08:29:43 AM

Are you absolutely sure you have a 73 Bus. If I am not mistaken and from the pictures you posted I see a round external gas cap on the rear right and no flapper door for access to the 73 gas cap. Further, the ECU and air box mounts look awfully original and not something cut in or welded to the rear inner area above the battery tray area. Do all 4 VIN numbers on the body match? Might help to resolve the issue of mismatched parts or worn originals.

Ok........well that is something I never considered. Forest and trees: yeah I never twigged to that air box mount and ECU hole looking very original and not something cobbled in? I'll be out working on the bus later this morning and check. That is a super-head-scratcher now. I will report back!

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 31, 2019, 04:52:14 AM »

Oh man, my mind reels at what/how exactly some PO got this bus registered. It's now looking like the dash is a replacement and they decided to go with using the VIN number on the dash for registration. Which means, I suppose, that even though this bus is now registered with a 1973 bus VIN (and who knows where the rest of that bus is, probably squished into soup cans long ago) but it lives on via the VIN number on this dash. They removed the VIN number on the door jamb. I'm learning but not yet successful at finding the VIN number in the engine compartment but I'm already betting that based on the engine code and layout of the camper cabinets that this actually is a 1976 bus. I guess someone really sneaky could have just changed the VIN number on the dash but that would be rather unscrupulous and not very nice. Yesterday was not the perfect work on the bus day for me as it turned out so I did not get the time on it I'd hoped for so today is a new day and we shall see how it goes. On the other hand my 88 year old mom got all her furniture moved around that she wanted.....

So the good news so far though (kinda) is that I think this VIN situation would mean the mounts/etc for the transmission would be correct for the bus/transmission combination as it's looking very much like everything is 1976(ish). So I'm still back to my problem of shifting into 3rd or 4th when the bus is moving. Works like a charm engine off or on while standing still. My front-most nylon/plastic bushing for the shift rod is little more than a thin sliver of it's former self and the slop of the shaft in that bushing is dramatic so I'm going to order one of those just because it (should) make the shifting "feel" nicer and more exact but I have serious doubts that's going to fix my problem.

How come no one else is on the forum at 4:50am this morning? ha ha

Thanks,
-George

pittwagen · « **Reply #7 on:** March 31, 2019, 07:42:04 AM »

Here is a note from the Samba authored by BUSDADDY:

"The VIN is stamped into the body in the left rear of the engine compartment on the lip that surrounds the engine, sounds like you've already found it. It's also on the LH end of the dash top at the windshield, on a sticker in the door jamb and on the M plate (either behind the LH front seat on the bulkhead or on top of the LH fresh air duct just inside of the LH signal)."

Dashes do get replaced and door posts do get painted. Hopefully the M code plate is still intact. The top number on the plate should start out with a 62 if it is a 76 followed by 6 digits which hopefully will agree with the numbers in the engine compartment. Sorry I could not find a current working M code decoder app. Too early at 7:30am.

With respect to the shifting, are you absolutely sure the shifter is actually engaging the trans or are the bushing too worn. I would replace all the bushings and possibly the coupler. I would also consider jacking the vehicle up on 4 jacks and put it into gear to see if the wheels will actually turn in 3/4. And do not lay under the van when doing this. If the wheels do not turn, you will need to get into the nose cone area to see what is going on and perhaps further - broken shift fork. The transmission folks will chime in hopefully with some better qualified help.

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #8 on:** March 31, 2019, 08:49:27 AM »

Oh boy!, things are getting messy.

There's a VIN stamped into the engine surround as mentioned, if it's been filled you should still be able to see a trace of it from the back side of the panel (depending on how rusty it is), the pic of an earlier bus below also shows one behind the RF seat, a 76 may not have that, especially if it's a swivel seat camper.

Hopefully the M plate is still on top of the LF fresh air duct just inboard of the signal light. Sadly all the automated M decoder sites are broken now, but it still has a VIN on it so at least you can date what you have.

Fix all the external things you can on the shift linkage, that front bushing makes quite a difference as well as the rear one. After that it's time to get into the nose cone for a look at the plastic donut on the end of the hockey stick, and while you are in there you'll likely want to add the bearing support plate mod that all 091's need.

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #9 on:** March 31, 2019, 09:29:59 AM »

"And do not lay under the van when doing this."

My wife keeps upping our life insurance policy. Is this why?

pittwagen · « **Reply #10 on:** March 31, 2019, 09:37:43 AM »

And how may busses do you have on your property? That would be the real issue in our household. And it would not be an insurance issue but rather "do you really want to stay here". Keep us posted on your findings.

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #11 on:** March 31, 2019, 09:56:37 AM »

Quote from: pittwagen on March 31, 2019, 09:37:43 AM

And how may busses do you have on your property? That would be the real issue in our household. And it would not be an insurance issue but rather "do you really want to stay here". Keep us posted on your findings.

I'm keeping the number under 11 so I can count them on my fingers. I think that is pretty reasonable.

The reality is some are at my house in the garage and some on the driveway (which goes into the back yard) and the rest are stashed around at various places hoping their welcome does not run out. Sadly I have discovered that I cannot fix them up all at once even though some days it seems I am trying to do exactly that.

gsun · « **Reply #12 on:** March 31, 2019, 06:03:43 PM »

You must be retired to have that much time!

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #13 on:** April 01, 2019, 06:33:26 AM »

Quote from: gsun on March 31, 2019, 06:03:43 PM

You must be retired to have that much time!

Well supposedly I'm retired but I sure seem as busy or busier than I was when I was working. I guess that's good.

Meanwhile.......here is an update. So yeah...the PO managed to remove all traces of the VIN number and various plates. The best part was the left side metal behind the engine that helps hold the engine foam in place that would have the VIN stamped into it as per Bus Daddy is............gone. This vehicle was hit some time ago from behind (before me) and the damage was simply all cut away and while they were at it, they cut away that piece too. I have a theory now why all this was done and it makes sense but I'm going to keep it to myself. Anyways, at the end of the day I have what is surely a 1976 bus with a 1973 VIN and that's the way it appears to have been for a number of years and that's the way it's going to stay.

Meanwhile, as I try to get the 3rd and 4th gear problem resolved I've learned another reason I love living in Fort Langley. It's because you can easily get to anywhere in town with just 1st and 2nd gear and keep up with the traffic. So we took Bart the Bus down to the Marina Park yesterday for a picnic. I even washed him first but I'll be the first to admit: it didn't help. By the time we are done though, he will be a good-looking bus and all fixed up inside and out. Some day.

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #14 on:** April 04, 2019, 06:35:41 AM »

Quote from: pittwagen on March 31, 2019, 07:42:04 AM

Here is a note from the Samba authored by BUSDADDY:

"The VIN is stamped into the body in the left rear of the engine compartment on the lip that surrounds the engine, sounds like you've already found it. It's also on the LH end of the dash top at the windshield, on a sticker in the door jamb and on the M plate (either behind the LH front seat on the bulkhead or on top of the LH fresh air duct just inside of the LH signal)."

Dashes do get replaced and door posts do get painted. Hopefully the M code plate is still intact. The top number on the plate should start out with a 62 if it is a 76 followed by 6 digits which hopefully will agree with the numbers in the engine compartment. Sorry I could not find a current working M code decoder app. Too early at 7:30am.

With respect to the shifting, are you absolutely sure the shifter is actually engaging the trans or are the bushing too worn. I would replace all the bushings and possibly the coupler. I would also consider jacking the vehicle up on 4 jacks and put it into gear to see if the wheels will actually turn in 3/4. And do not lay under the van when doing this. If the wheels do not turn, you will need to get into the nose cone area to see what is going on and perhaps further - broken shift fork. The transmission folks will chime in hopefully with some better qualified help.

So I've completed the testing of the 3rd and 4th gears to see if while motionless (up on jack stands) if going into those two gears is actually engaging the transmission or not. Except I did it a slightly different way. My driveway is on a bit of an incline (down towards the house). And it's not a bad length. But there is my camper trailer and my truck parked at the end nearest the house. The length of the driveway from the road to the front of my truck is about 4 bus lengths. But I have space beside the truck so lets say 5 bus lengths. So I figure I can get going at the top of my driveway using the incline and a gentle yet ambitious amount of slipping the clutch and start the bus going in 3rd gear...... and it worked! A little punishing to the old heart as I swerve around the truck and hit the brakes just short of crashing into the front corner post that holds up my balcony. It was so successful that I figured "May as well try 4th too". So I backed up to the top of the driveway and put it into 4th and oh-so-carefully started liberally slipping the clutch and he moved and started down the driveway. There was a moment when the back of my mind wondered absently if I was absolutely sure that the brake warning light on my dash was truly a wiring/switch problem as I'd summized a week earlier..... Anyways, it clearly was in 4th and got power as I gave it gas and then I shoved the clutch pedal down and did the swerve around my truck and hitting the brakes and stopped plenty safely nearly two whole feet short of the supporting corner post again. See? Much safer than putting it up on 4 jack stands. ha ha. Later that day my 88 year old mom who was inside the house asked me "Did I hear you had the bus running, dear?". Yep!

So one more wrinkly twist to the testing. I did not stop there. I did one more run that was trickier by a mile than the previous two and when I stopped all I could see was post almost up to my windshield as I stopped within inches.... So I was so positive that I'm withing hairs-breadth of these two gears working, I do one more run with a plan to test trying once again shifting from 2nd to 3rd that has not worked ever during any of my road tests. Except my 3 day ICBC permit was expired. So I was not venturing out onto busy Glover Road to try anything. It was driveway or bust! Back I go to the top of the driveway. To gain a little more space, I back up right across the sidewalk. I start in 2nd gear down the incline easily. At the halfway point (2.5 bus lengths) I'm going snail speed and I shift successfully from 2nd to 3rd for the first time ever and give it a little gas just to make sure I feel the transmission being powered by the engine and then clutch in, swerve and brakes all at the same time and stop. Weird how sweaty I was. Driving a manual shift vehicle is a lot of work.

So anyways, that was rather interesting and unexpected. On the road at regularish road speeds in 2nd gear, there was no way it was allowing me to shift into 3rd (or 4th) from 2nd gear. It was like the shifter knob would not even go to the position it needed to get to for those gears. But at super slow speed on my driveway, it did. Again, never any grinding at all. Shifts beautifully into any gear when the bus is running but stationary. Apparently shifts (at least into 3rd, I never tried 4th) when going super-dead-slow on the driveway from 2nd to 3rd.

I'm waiting for my new bushings to arrive for the shifter linkage, especially the front one that is clearly ground up to almost nothing. I am going to do a clutch cable length/tension adjustment when the rain stops. If none of those work, I'll be doing BD's suggestion of into the nose cone which for me will be a first so that will be a trepidatious adventure assuming I get that far.

Thanks all!
-George

pittwagen · « **Reply #15 on:** April 04, 2019, 06:55:36 AM »

I would do the coupler too while you are under there.

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 04, 2019, 07:52:54 AM »

Quote from: pittwagen on April 04, 2019, 06:55:36 AM

I would do the coupler too while you are under there.

I assume you mean the one right in front of the transmission and not the simpler one that just connects the front rod to the rear rod that I have to take apart to replace the front bushing?

-George

pittwagen · « **Reply #17 on:** April 04, 2019, 08:17:00 AM »

Yes, the one in front of the trans. That is the one I have had the most issue with. Just make sure the other one is tight.

While we are at it, how much free play to you have at your clutch pedal before there is resistance? No more than an inch, I hope.

As well have you checked your shifter plate? Maybe an adjustment?

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #18 on:** April 04, 2019, 05:22:24 PM »

Quote from: pittwagen on April 04, 2019, 08:17:00 AM

Yes, the one in front of the trans. That is the one I have had the most issue with. Just make sure the other one is tight.

While we are at it, how much free play to you have at your clutch pedal before there is resistance? No more than an inch, I hope.

As well have you checked your shifter plate? Maybe an adjustment?

Ok, ordered the coupler. The free play on the clutch is too much currently hence my plan to adjust the cable on "the next sunny day" which apparently was a lie because today was sunny and I spent most of it working on my wife's VW Fastback cuz she would like it on the road for the summer and it's had a rough winter in the garage just sitting there and various things failing as it sat there doing nothing....

I mucked with the shifter plate on the weekend and did not make any improvement but I may go back and do some more. It was at the same time that I was taking my runs at almost driving into my house. Heyyyy.......is that why I was able to shift from 2nd to 3rd during that last test run on the driveway? Because earlier in the day I was playing with the shifter plate? I never really finished testing different positions because it was late in the day and time to take Bart the Bus and my wife down to the waterfront park in Fort Langley for our picnic so I just tightened it all down again and forgot about it. I didn't try going 2nd to 3rd until the fun on the driveway a couple days later. Jeez......I wonder.....

-George

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2019, 10:28:23 PM »

Finally got my shift rod coupler in from CIP1. What was I thinking? I remember thinking it would be interesting seeing how the cheapest one they have compared to one of the better ones they have. Basically $19 vs $42. I guess somewhere along the way I was adding and removing various things from my online "shopping cart" and then finally submitted the order. So it all shows up and there is only one coupler in there. I apparently deleted one of them: the good one. So meanwhile this $19 one? Who the heck would ever put that in their car/bus? I totally get and understand the whole "you get what you pay for" but seriously this thing is just bent up metal crap. Why even carry it? I think it has more play in it than my worn one. So now I've ordered the proper one. Actually I ordered their two "best" ones as they are pretty close in price and if they are both good I'll always use the 2nd one sooner or later.

Meanwhile for fun and learning, I had my wife (engine off, bus up on ramps, front wheels chocked) go slowly through all the gears 1-2-3-4 and back down again multiple times while I watched and learned from underneath the bus how the shift rod coupler moves and how much for each gear. Then I had her do a few 1 - 3 and back and 2 - 4 and back since they are kinda similar down there. What amazes me about this all is how incredibly close 1 - 3 movements and 2 - 4 movements are. It is barely discernible to my eyes that they are even different: it looks to me like one is just a little more "tilted/turned" on the rod axis than the other. Amazing that inside the transmission it can react to such a small difference. I can certainly see why a little worn play in that coupler can mess up shifting.

-George

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #20 on:** April 30, 2019, 02:32:25 PM »

My couplers are in! My couplers are in! Yep, a HUGE difference between the better two options and the crap cheap option. And even at that one of them is clearly more heavy duty than the other one. Get all my damned taxes sent in today so I can get back to enjoying life out under my bus putting in my nice new heavy duty coupler and everything will be happy again!

I will post photos of the three different couplers in the next day or two so you can get a good view of how different they each are.

Will this along with the clutch adjustment I'll do while I'm under there finally be the solution to no 3rd or 4th gear available when the bus is physically moving ? I hope so. I need to get some camping days in soon before the Summer Vacation crowds start showing up everywhere.

-George

BUSDADDY · « **Reply #21 on:** April 30, 2019, 06:00:48 PM »

It can't make it any worse, bet it solves your problem.

Regardless of how "heavy duty" that coupler looks it's worth 10 minutes to weld the pressed in collar the shaft goes in to the sheet metal cage, 1/2" of weld on each side is plenty. In some cases that collar can get loose and twist in the cage, usually after letting a non VW person drive it.

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #22 on:** May 01, 2019, 09:22:43 PM »

Ok so got my nice new shift coupler installed this afternoon and adjusted the clutch cable. I drove it off the ramps and checked that while sitting in the driveway with the engine running I was able to easily shift into all gears and let out the clutch lightly to ensure the gears were actually engaged and started to move the vehicle. So far so good. So tomorrow I'll get a one day permit and give Bart the '76 bus a quick road test. I say quick for two reasons: 1. I'll know very quickly if I'm able to shift from 2nd to 3rd or 4th at road speeds or not. 2. The bus is backfiring lots and I don't want to draw undue attention that I don't have all the mechanical parts done up nice yet. I suppose it's a pride thing.

Here is the new heavy-duty coupler happily installed. It did not require extra welding to hold the pressed-in tube secure because on this particular version the entire armature including the tube is all one single cast piece of heavy-duty thick steel. Very nice. Still need to slide through the lock-wire into that grub screw and tighten it up so it cannot come loose.

Meanwhile though, I did find some interesting stuff and one surprising thing. The interesting thing is how a previous owner dealt with a new clutch cable that was apparently too long:

And the one surprising thing? As I wrote in an earlier post, someone had worked on the bus at some point before me and chopped out the fuel filter and put a small plastic tube between the two hose ends that used to go to the fuel filter. I fixed that up several weeks ago and installed a nice new see-through fuel filter just a little bit before the fuel pump. However, look what I was able to see today once I was underneath at the right angle to adjust the clutch adjust wing nut? Hidden almost completely out of sight up above the torsion tube.... and it's plenty old and dirty inside and out:

kinggeorge13 · « **Reply #23 on:** May 03, 2019, 06:19:14 AM »

So did the rest of you hear angels singing yesterday late in the morning? I sure did. It happened exactly when my bus shifted into 3rd gear at speed for the first time since I got it. And then as I sped up along Glover Road it shifted into 4th, also for the first time. I could clearly hear the praises of "Hallelujah" from the heavens above. So it's now working and working fairly well (not perfect yet, but close) from the combination of:

1. New front shift rod bushing (mine was literally torn open)
2. Initial adjustment of the stop plate on the floor under the shifter (and clean up and re-greased)
3. Tightening of the clutch cable
4. Replacement of the sloppy shift coupler in front of the nose cone with the new built-like-a-tank one

So there ya go. This super-long involved rambling post is just about at an end. All is not 100% perfect yet as it's not shifting nicely into 3rd and 4th every single time but like all buses, it takes a little practice to learn exactly where that sweet spot is for the shift knob to get to and mine right now seems to be needing pushing the knob more to the right than it really wants to go for it to click into to that correct "notch" it goes into for the 3rd and 4th gear to engage (that's how I always describe how it feels, anyway). So I'm thinking a little more adjustment of the stop plate is in order but I'm plenty happy. The gears are there. No grinding.

I may just go out this weekend and treat Bart the Bus to a nice quick coat of gloss black rust paint from a rattle can to cover all his major previous wounds that are rusting visibly just to make him look a little nicer until I get around to doing his actual bodywork (he is a black bus). Oh yeah and gotta get that old fuel filter outta it's hiding spot and new hose in it's place.

Thanks everyone for your feedback and suggestions.

-George