AirSpeed VW Community Forums
General Forums => Member's VW's => Topic started by: s3racing on November 25, 2003, 06:13:10 PM
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B) I bought my beetle when I was 16 I 'm 25 now, drove it for the first 2 years & 1 winter w/o heater. In Williams Lake, its cooled up there! Then I caught the bug, started with a simple idea to re-do the engine. Now 7 years after the first bolt turned, the pan is still off, and I'm moving to switzerland. Every Bug I see makes me want to finish mine. I'm planning to build it for beetle cup racing in europe and after showing it off at a couple of shows here, ship it over to my new home.
I want a clean look no frills just a whole lot of hidden get- up and go, and one to make a porsche driver drule as I race him through some bendy roads, Like we have here through the canyon. I bought most of my parts through Geoff when he was still at C.I.P. and now I need to find a way to work on it long distance maybe once a year or so. I'll post some pics when I can get to a scanner.
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I got you beat on that one s3racing!
Bought my Ghia in 1983, had it stripped at REDI-Strip metals.
Then had some body work done (Rustoration) but it's still up on blocks
bare metal and all. Totally stripped, no suspension, electrical, nothing....
How's that for an ongoing project? - 21years and still counting ;)
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Geez guys - I thought I was bad!
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Hey Art,
You started that ghia when Cale was still on the tit :o :lol:
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Ok now I'm 35 and trying to pick up this project again. Was once in the past 10 years in a shop for drivers heater channel replacement plus some other small metal repairs.
Now to go over the whole concept, and start again!!
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A few pictures of my car as it looks right now. Stored at my Brothers.
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Pictures
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More pictures
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Just a quick update
I ordered the 915/61 from Nineapart last week with a set of boxster wheels 17 *7 fronts 17 * 8.5 rears and the boxster calipers for the kit that I ordered from Vdub engineering the week before.
I am right now trying to figuring out the rear suspension setup, not to sure yet what's going to happen there yet. Stiffer and lower for sure.
Talked to Geoff about the pan build and Russ about powder coating. Great bunch of guys and very helpful.
On the way now aswell are the 915 conversion parts from Bott Fahrzeug Technik in Germany including new nose cone, mounts and 5 speed shifter.
Wish I could be doing some of the work myself, but at least it's going to start coming together now.
I post a couple pictures if what's on the way. Tonight!
René
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Was on the phone with Atom Werk engineering tonight :-)
I took the plunge and ordered the "deluxe assembled set"
2" rear drop plates with needle bearings in translucent red. He said about a 6 week delivery time as they are custom made per application. Going to 21 ¾" length bars. Not sure about the shocks yet.
I hope it's a worth while buy!!
Mixed emotions on this one.
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Sorry I didn't get back to you regarding the setup on my car. You PM'd me while I was away with limited internet, and then I returned to GCVW craziness! (landed at 10am, grabbed my car and drove right to the AVR open house).
-Dave
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No big deal Dave Thanks for all the great advice so far.
Here as i said are a couple pictures of whats on the way for my project.
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Wheels and Brakes off this poor car :-)
This is how they look off the car
17 • 7 fronts and 17 • 8.5 rear with used rubber for keeping the car off the ground. until i get fresh rubber on them When the car is ready to hit the road.
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:-) trany conversion parts have arrived from Bott fahrzeug technik aka bug@fivespeed
Now the work on the trany finally can get started.
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A couple of the used Wheels need some refinishing, when i worked at ford in W.L. I worked with Nu-Brite quite often. In Surrey if I remember right. But I think I'll leave the wheel repairs as one of the last details. Before I have new rubber installed on them.
Tire sizes are pritty solid with 215/35r17 front
245/35r17 rears. Factory sizes are smaller on the front but a size wider on the rear. But I think this will be a good fit. And will reduce the overall ride Hight by about sn inch as well.
Now waiting that the trany will be finished so I can get the car to Geoff, for the fab. Work and pan assembly.
Can't wait to be able to post some real progress pictures. And what's happening.
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K I got a complicated ? That I haven't found a real straight forward answer to here or elsewhere yet. I'm running a 915/61 transaxle from a 78 911. And boxster front and rear brakes. Well rear is 944 with boxster calipers. I'm trying to figure out which drive axles I can use. The width of the trans from what I've found the width of the trans are the same and the stub axles from the 944 will fit to my hubs. The flanges from the trans should be 108mm 6 bolt as are those from the 944. I think the 944 axles should work. But I don't want to order them from the wrecker on a gamble. I think I just need to avoid the axles from the late models with the aluminum control arms as the track is supposed to be longer and so the axles as well. Has anyone researched before to get stronger axles? Last option is to wait and measure. And then order custom length axles from Sway a way. Using 930 CV's. Any help would be great to shed somemore light on this area of my build.
Thanks René
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A 944 CV joint is 100mm, so you should check your gearbox's flange's dia. 100mm CVs is all anyone needs in a VW. I've seen 9 second drag cars go forever on them.
The stock 944 axles will be way too long. Even though early 944 TAs are essentially the same as Beetle, they are spaced wider because the 944 body is a lot wider. This means the axles are really long.
You don't need to custom order axles. When you buy sway-a-way axles, they make all of their axles with really long splines. All you need to do is chuck them in the lathe and shorten them to what you need. Plenty of splines left when you do that.
Don't discount the stock Beetle axles. If they're the right length and the splines work with the CVs needed to fit your flanges, use them. Stock IRS axles are not the weaklings like stock swing axles are.
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Cool thanks Bruce,
I was wrong the 915 output flanges are 100mm 6 bolt so compatible with the 944 CV's. So I can use the 944 CV's inside and outside and the 944 Stub axles will also fit for what I have. The splines are the same as the t1 from what i remember in my reading. so I can combine the 944 CV's with the IRS beetle axles, to get what i need. Worst case i need to get the Sway a way axles. but thats no big deal the engine won't go in for a bit yet anyways. So I have time to get that combo right. My worry was more the ability I guess for the IRS axles to handle the power that The motor will be putting through them. goal is min. 200Bhp if i go Subi then its closer to 265 - 300 hp.
Thanks Bruce for the help.
Cheers René
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Stock IRS axles don't break. If they fit, use them.
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Cool Spring plates are here looking good. Picture is a little blurry but :-) me is happy. Shop date is creeping up on me so time to start organizing all the parts together. and lighting some fires under some peoplers pants so the rest of the parts arrive in time for assembly and Powder coating.
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944 axles arrived. The CV's need to be repacked and the boots changed. Maybe a powder coat on the axles might make sense when i have them apart.
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Still waiting for my brake parts to arrive. Getting impatient :-(
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Adam from AMT Machining is now doing the Brake upgrade parts for me. He's is wondering about the spindle Orientation. I hope I got this right. Please Correct me if I'm wrong.
This is the Bottom of the spindle ( to the ground )
<--Front of the Car to the rear of the Car-->
This is the Top side of the spindle
Ok on this picture Because of brake lines etc. it would be best if we can place the Calliper on the other side Inboard side of the car instead of on in this picture to the front of the Car. This picture would be of the Drivers side Spindle.
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jpeg file
Do I need to weld the Speedo hole if im not using it? Or tap it and thread in a plug. So grease doesn't leak out. I am using the speedo signal from the 915/61 which have an electronic output. Whats the word.
René
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I didn't use my speedo hole for 4+ years, including all the gravel and winter rallies. I simply filled the hole with grease to keep water and dirt out. I just recently put a speedo cable in to run a different style sensor for the rally computer. Simply pushed an old cable through backwards to clean out the grease/dirt, and ran a new cable in.
Hth
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Dave thanks,
I just wrote Adam that he should tap a thread into it so we can put a bolt with lock tight in it to prevent any dirt and grease from getting in there. How does my directions for the Spindle Orientation look to you? I know you have a Super but maybe you can confirm or correct that from the picture orientation thanks for any help.
Cheers René
Cool Geoff Just wrote me back I think that clears those issues up. Thanks Dave For your Help. I'll Post some pictures when the complete package is together.
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I think we are staying with the Callipers in that position. So we don't have to space the callipers away from the disc and lose pad contact. We tried them in the factory position that created a few clearancing issues and the need for ¼" out spacing for the mounting etc.
The rear shouldn't have any issues in that regards.
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Adam from AMT Machining just finished up my brake conversion :-)
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Drivers side
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Tell Adam I said hi when you pick them up.
-Dave
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Dave thanks for the suggestion. It worked out great !!
Putting another question out there attached is a picture of bracing welded onto the pan for an IRS beetle would this be preferable over a CSP Stiffy (torque Bar Kit) kit? Any Pro's and Con's to this setup. I'll be planning on running around 200 - 250 BHP in her (NA 2332cc). Set up is for some aggressive street and occasional Hill climb driving on paved roads no dirt. Thanks in advance for any tips or suggestions.
Cheers René
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Are you caging the car, or leaving it as is?
Most of the tubing you see on that pan is probably way overkill for what you're looking to do. The CSP Stiffy will be just fine. I suppose in some ways more bracing is always better than less, but the work you see done here is going to make putting the body on a horrible job. I suspect, but don't know for sure, that some of the bracing built in here is required for the Air-Jack system this pan has installed. The entire weight of the car is going to be held by the three vertical pipes you see. Once you brace the frame horns and upper shock mounts, the rear of a beetle is quite strong. The area which is far more of a problem is the A-Pillar line. A hard-driven bug will end up showing fatigue issues at the bottom of the door posts on the a-pillar to heater channel junction.
My GL bug will probably get some similar tube work, but only if I run the air-jack system I've been thinking of. Otherwise it will be just a traditional cage structure.
-Dave
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Dave thanks,
I'd like to cage the car, but thats still in the air on how far I can go with that for Swiss regulations etc.
And I'm a fairly aggressive driver when no one especially Wife or Police aren't looking to closely lol.
My concern is more getting the car as stiff as possible for handling reasons and body / Chassis fatigue.
But what i need to watch as well is my Wife said if I build it which I am lol. I have to be able to transport the kids, which makes some limits on what I can do to the back seats lol. their safety is of first concern in that case.
With that said with the Munchkins in the car I'm a quite sane driver. but rear seat accessibility and keeping then cage out of impact range to the kids in case of an accident are of quite high priority.
At the end its a real balancing game on what I can do, whats really needed and feasible and what I can get away with here after its imported.
Which is why i'm looking at any way of stiffening and bracing to get the results I want / need without a Cage if possible. Which brings your point of the A piller as a week point and how to over come that if possible without the need of a roll cage.
Any Idea's would be great. I haven't ruled out a 6 - 8 point cage with a street car door bar and no x-bar between the front to the back.
thanks Rene
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If you're putting kids in the car, DO NOT cage it. They aren't safe without harnesses and helmets, and for a harness to be properly safe they should be uncomfortably tight. You cannot put kids in a caged car safely.
Given that you need the car to transport family, there will be some compromises. I'd run a CB rear bar setup, brace the upper beam (if using a beam) to the floor pan and consider gusseting the lower A-Piller where it joins the heater channel. Outside of that, your car will be plenty snappy enough to please you. You're welcome to come experience the Rally bug, and/or my old '69 if my buddy Scott will let us take it out (he bought it) to see how stiff they are.
-Dave
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I'd like to take you up on that but unfortunatly distance is a problem :-(
Not quite sure how to gusset the front A Piller without a cage but I'm sure Geoff does, so I'll add that to my list. :-) I couldn't find a stiffy kit or beetle cup bar for the rear from CB but I'm guessing the CSP kit , Bugpack or empi versions would've equivalent which would you recommend Dave?
Would the beetle lend to some floor bracing under the pan? Or to brace the front maybe with some tubing, triangulation bracing in the front luggage compartment tied into the front a pillar bracing Gussets?
Relevant or important right now is figuring everything out that effects the pan / chassis build so that can be finished of and sent off to Russ for powder.
Thanks for your help Dave
Cheers René
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I can't remember, and I'm in the garage pulling a motor, are you using a traditional front beam or a mendeola a-arm setup?
You want a 5-Bar Kafer bar setup, presuming you're running without heater boxes. I'll look up the good ones, but pack 3-bar setup needs a lot of mods to make it worth using.
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Im running a traditional stock width front beam, with Koni's and beam braces of some kind. The rear I have a 915/61 with a conversion kit from Bott fahrzeug technik in DE, 2"Racing Drop plates from Atom werks engineering. I looked at the Mendeola but followed some links you suggested and found that I think I can get the results I want with the Torsion suspension.
What special that I have is I went to short rear torsion bars 26mm but have 19mm sway bars front and rear, am planning on some kind of custom mounts for the Sway bar on the front so that they are mounted to the beam as in the tech notes that you sent me the link to.
I haven't done any bracing yet but think its important to stiffen up the front end some more.
The rear I was more worried about getting the power to the ground without cracking anything when I give her gas :-)
As it will have as much Bhp as what my 89 GT Mustang had and it had some chassis stress going on and was built for that much horse power & torque.
oh and no I'm not running heater boxes, Its a seasonally driven Car, but with that said i will have to figure something out for defogging and heating for spring and fall. But Winter the Car will be parked for the most part.
the CSP kit is a 3 bar kit and the empi kit is 5 bar kit
Thanks for your interest and feed back Dave
René
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OK my Car is really in Geoff's shop and its happening Coming to gather great!! Geoff is doing an awesome Job here are some pictures.
a few small hiccups along the way
- missing pedals
- more rust damage than i expected
- missing or can't find some parts lol ( what do you expect its been sitting in pieces for 15 years or so) lol
- and a few small details that im still not certain how it will work out but with Geoff on the job we are finding solutions.
Its been a great week of progress looking forward to see what next week brings :-)
Whats great Geoff is really including me in the progress and sending me pictures to keep me up to date. Awesome guy to work with!!
Thanks Geoff
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rusty
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more rusty lol
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rusty 3 and some work for transaxle fitment
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ok I had to show something not so rusty so here are the pedals we ended up picking out to replace the missing ones
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Fixing rust and Geoffs suggestion adding an access panel. Great Idea so of course I said go for it.
and a picture of some of the transaxle fitment more to come
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Transaxle fitment with the new shifter from Bug@5speed or here in europe Bott Fahrzeug technik
I ordered the complete set up from them. With exception to the used Trans etc.
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Geoff Playing in the sand box lol
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Mocking up oil cooler lines and test fitting the beam etc.
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Rust repair and here you see the finished access panel for getting into the tunnel
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Last but not least measurements for the pedals, those arrived today so my Dad should have them to Geoff ASAP
The Pedals i sourced through summit racing as they could get them to me the fastest.
The Master Cylinders for the brakes one front one rear. As well as all the braided hose for cooler and fuel and remote reservoirs for the brake masters I ordered up from Mopac.
We'll see what else happens this week and start of next.
How much progress we can make before my Budget runs out.
aim is with this stage of the build is to have a rolling Chassis Powder coated and assembled I hope we can get it that far.
Next Stage will be body with lots of bracing and mods, paint, electrical and maybe some interior.
We are adding lots of bracing on the pan and Body because I decided against a roll cage but wanted to get as much stiffness and handling performance as possible. The main reason for no cage is it will be a daily driver and I will have my kids in the car so want to maintain usage of the rear seat. if possible add a 3rd belt in the rear.
Any suggestions are always welcome
Everyone have a great weekend Cheers René
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holy looks great so far
it's in good hands with Geoff
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Totally Russ!!
And as soon as Geoff has it ready it will be on its way to you for some fire engine Red powder coating, and gloss black for the smaller parts. It will look great as well!
Looks like a lot of forum members will have something with her before she is done.
An engine I still need
Interiour
And
Lots of advice along the way of course.
It will be a great experience
Thanks guys for your help and advice
Cheers René
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Nice choice on the pedal set. My next bug will have a similar setup, but with master's under my heels.
Whats your plan for balance bar / balance setup? Are you running a remote knob or just a set-it and forget it balance bar?
-Dave
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Dave,
I'm a little split on the Balance bar it comes with an adjustable on the fly one and if you don't use it you can lock it with a couple nuts. But the adjuster knob is separate. I haven't yet ordered that but it's not really expensive either. Just not sure if I will ever use it but would've neat to have.
But image type that says if I add it and never really use it then it's waste of space even if it looks cool.
If was a race car it would totally make sense but it will be 80% of its time street/ daily driver the rest I might get a chance to escape for the odd weekend and run it on a hill climb, drivers training or auto cross. There it probably would make sense.
Dave what's your experience would you add an adjuster knob to the pedal cluster?
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I guess for $50.00 it would make sense for the odd time I'd use it. Or would it be waste of space on my dash
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Update from Geoff's progress yesterday
The access panel with stiffening Stick welds, and repair metal welded in to replace all that rust.
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Here you see more stich welds added to the factory beam to stiffen it up
- the mock up of the front steering set up, and the repair panel from the top side again with stich welds so its nice and stiff
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Custom Transaxle mounts with seam welds
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And here you see the 915/61 mounted in its new home.
Awesome Job Geoff definalty the right man for the job!!
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Sway bar problem any suggestions?? Or ideas? On a different set up of a rear sway bar
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Could one flip it and mount it on the top side of the car instead of the underside as it is right now?? Or would there be interference there as well??
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There's no room to mount it there. This was just a test fit, I'll try a few things Monday.
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Ok thanks Geoff, maybe Martin the supplier of the trans conversion kit has an idea. I sent him a mail to ask I hope to hear from him on Monday.
Have a great weekend.
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Next Stage will be body with lots of bracing and mods,
We are adding lots of bracing on the pan and Body because I decided against a roll cage but wanted to get as much stiffness and handling performance as possible.
Weld convertible reinforcement rails onto the underside of the heater channels.
Weld convertible style gussets in the bottom corners of both door openings.
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Thanks for the idea Bruce,
Geoff welded bracing in under the pan already but the body he hasn't started yet. I'll look into the gussets that you mentioned. Thanks René
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Dave,
I'm a little split on the Balance bar it comes with an adjustable on the fly one and if you don't use it you can lock it with a couple nuts. But the adjuster knob is separate. I haven't yet ordered that but it's not really expensive either. Just not sure if I will ever use it but would've neat to have.
But image type that says if I add it and never really use it then it's waste of space even if it looks cool.
If was a race car it would totally make sense but it will be 80% of its time street/ daily driver the rest I might get a chance to escape for the odd weekend and run it on a hill climb, drivers training or auto cross. There it probably would make sense.
Dave what's your experience would you add an adjuster knob to the pedal cluster?
Even in race cars where we have them, we're rarely adjusting them. You're never really going to adjust it on a street car, beyond the first two setup days. You do some dry pavement tests and set the balance so (ideally) both front and rear lock up at the same instant. Make a note of how many turns from one direction you set it at. You then do the same on wet pavement, where you'll likely find the fronts in the beetle are locking up before the rear (opposite of most vehicles). You then divide the difference between the two settings for your "everyday" setup. Are you really going to turn the knob on rainy days, or will you just adjust your driving style? I doubt you'll be taking it out in the snow, so a winter setting probably isn't needed. If you're going to track the car, and you have the track layout memorized, than yes...you can dial your laptimes down with some brake adjustments. BUT, if you aren't consistently hitting the same line, every lap...you'll never notice the difference.
Based on what you've said regarding your planned use, I would probably spend a couple hours setting up the dry and wet braking via the bolts, and not worry about the knob. I didn't even put a proportioning valve into the rally bug, as the suspension setups I have for gravel, snow and pavement adjust the weight transfer enough that I don't really need it. I'm not going to notice the difference between one click or two, so I might as well focus on my overall driving technique instead.
My next build (GL) will likely have a knob, but I know it's not likely to get used very often at all.
HTH,
-Dave
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Thanks Dave,
It was $60.00 so I thought its not going to brake the bank and i might be happy to have it when I run it the odd time on the track. So its now in the growing pile of parts to be installed lol.
The build is coming along nicely Geoff is doing an awesome job. Totally impressed with all the custom Fab work he had to do is doing.
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I found this old picture that I had glued to a poster. It's me washing my Car when I bought it back in 1994 :-)
Sorry for the quality it's a picture of a picture :-)