Author Topic: "knowledge Thread"  (Read 5310 times)

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Offline jim martin

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"knowledge Thread"
« on: May 25, 2004, 09:33:46 PM »
some of these photos are bad and i will replace them later,this info is what works for me and my car with a ball join frt end,its tested too 120mph[not recomended] and is stable.i will  show a few ways that you can check your alignment at home with a box of beer and some simple tools.i worked on this alignment at work last year for 2 days and put the car into ever angle i could imagine as too represent accelerating and braking forces at the frt and rear and will proved a list of specs later on if needed
first frt end terms ,theory and frt end
you need too know these 3 thing first, very important !!
*frt TOE-IN decreases as vehicle frt raises-good !!!
*frt CASTER caster increases as vehicle frt raises-very good !!!
*frt CAMBER no change throught suspension range-excellent !!!
-what is TOE-IN ?easy stand up and look down at your feet ,now move your big toes toward each other,now for a moment imagine yourself hanging over your car looking over your frt wheels.same thing ,TOE-IN or if you moved your big toes away from each other ,that is know called TOE-OUT.we need TOE-IN for one reason ,which is too compinsate for road force.basicaly as the car moves foreward this will force  the frt wheels too spread apart.so wee need too compisate with TOE-IN so at speeds the frt wheels will not be driven to a dangerous TOE-OUT position.clear so far? CASTER is huge!!this is what gives your car stability at speeds !!!!!!!!!!
this is everthing ,when you go shopping and you notice that evertime i turn my shopping cart that one wheel with the triangle always turns and tracks .same kind of idea.stand on the floor looking down at your feet and bend your knee's past your big toes.you just created POSITIVE CASTER.that squated position is stable and so is POSITIVE CASTER.this term is best described when looking at the frt wheel from the side as the forward tilt of the steering axis from true vertical.what?all you will have too know for a beetle is when the lower torsion tube of the frt suspension sticks out farther than the top one ,thats POSITIVE CASTER and is good.  frt CAMBER =road holding grip in corners ,this is easy again stand up now your feet are the bottom of the tire were it touches the road and your knees are the top of the tire which is dirrectly at the top part under your fenders.bend your knees towards each other.you have just created negative camber,this simpley means top of the tire tilted in toward centre.most peoples rear suspension has that effect when its lowerd -if you are going too check your car you need too first get the complete car up on jack stands and level frt to rear and side to side , i like putting a level on the door sill and.you may need too move the jack stands back off the frt tubes so you can get a level onto the lower tube of the frt end
frt CAMBER first

this is the real vw tool for checking all angles on the car that you see in the bentley manuel.i know its hard too read but its a hair below 1/2 deg positive camber

since i'm sure that many don't have one you could use a spirit level .again as in the photo's steer the wheels straight ahead and clamp/hold against the disc or drum straight up and down.the bouble should just touch the line in the positive way -top angling out!you can see the 19mm nut just below the knuckle which you can loose then turn the top large thin nut too get you angle right ,check both sides.

CASTER im sure everone has lowerd there frt end .looks cool but man is it dangerous.like i said the bottom tube has too be farther out than the top tube.and when you lower your car guess what the lower tube tucks under the top tube which reduces CASTER-BAD.easy check! put a jack under the frt beam and jack your car up with a spirit level on the door sill,stop when car is level.now slide under your car and put the same level against the top and lower beam,is the lower tube farther out .? hope so.how much that all depends-stock is about a 3-4 positive caster which if you have the hand vw guage is checked like this

you cant see it but its reading 10 deg -thats a tonn but like i said as the car is lowerd you loose frt caster and for me it comes out too 8 deg positive caster-whats safe 3-4 deg =80 mph /5-6 =90mph/7-8 =100mph the more the better.
on a vw you use caster shims to push the lower tube back out again if its been lowerd,one set for the street.two sets min for the track.me i have 4 sets stacked,you can check the frt caster with a spirit level like this

you can see that the top tube is 1 1/4 inches back from the lower tube.so if we divide 1 1/4 inches into 10 deg we get 1/4 inch per 2 deg .im sure you can figure it out ,if you need too change this adjustment you will need special length bolts and shims ,i'm sure you know were too find them.
checkin your FRT TOE-IN. doing this in the car will be alittle more difficult ,but if you are on a budget this is how too do it,first with the car raised ,level and supported you will need too make a tool -bar -steel or wood and a ruler.first step put it between the frt edge of the frt tires like this

now extend the ruler until it touches the other tir and clamp it

you can see i have 7 3/4 inches shown on the ruler.
now put the same guage at the rear

extend the ruler and note measuremant.in this case 8 inches

subtract the 2 and you get 1/4 inch POSITIVE TOE-IN thats good and like i said it will decrease as the suspension rises.what number's are good
1/8 TOE IN/0-.3 POSITIVE CAMBER/AND AT LEAST 6 DEG CASTER .so you see you can do a home alignment if needed ,remember your car needes too be level in both direction too do this with some sort of accurasy.please follow the bentaly manuel and ask for help if needed as there is a lot more going on than you can imagine.remember safety first build it safe the first time.hope this info helps explain a few things let me know if it makes sence.
now for anyone who has access to a alignment machine and wants the input data too run your own program let me know and i will post it as well if you would like any more specific info or pictures let me know and i will see if i can help
« Last Edit: May 28, 2004, 11:07:10 PM by jim martin »




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Offline kombikruiser

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"knowledge Thread"
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2004, 11:27:16 AM »
great info jim; keep it comin
'57 Type 1
'67 Type 1
'66 Type 2
'67 Type 3 Fastback

Offline jim martin

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"knowledge Thread"
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2004, 10:37:12 PM »
hope it makes some sence ,sometimes i'm just in a rambiling mood.tried too make it easy for all levels too understand as well as the more experianced can pick out the small hidden points.
i think so many don't understand alignment and how important it is  safety wise .as well as for pure speed getting the bare min of rolling resistance.
will try to do rear suspension next week .but that will depend as its rear of car assembley day tommorrow.




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Offline Hansk

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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2004, 11:59:17 PM »
Good stuff Jim ,  more , more
Big fat black fastback

Offline Mike Scott

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« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2005, 12:08:22 PM »
Had to bump this, great info. Thanks Jim

Offline Trevor P

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« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2005, 06:29:39 PM »
Some great pics and good info.
How narrow is that balljjoint beam Jim?
'53 Barndoor single cab
'57 Cal-look oval 2332cc / Berg 5
'70 911T

Offline James Buchan

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« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2005, 06:58:41 PM »
Looks 3\" to me

Offline jim martin

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« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2005, 07:22:46 PM »
Quote
Some great pics and good info.
How narrow is that balljjoint beam Jim?

any other guesses? hint take a look at how close the steering box is to the shock tower,don't forget times by 2 for a total .
.i'm almost ready to start doing some fun stuff on the car again so i will update this with the rear suspension set up when the wrenches start turning again.




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Offline jim martin

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« Reply #8 on: April 07, 2005, 07:23:42 PM »
Quote
Looks 3" to me
nope




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Offline Mike Scott

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« Reply #9 on: April 07, 2005, 07:38:06 PM »
6\" got to be

Offline jim martin

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« Reply #10 on: April 07, 2005, 07:59:51 PM »
Quote
6" got to be
right on the money my friend !!!!




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Offline Mike Scott

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« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2005, 08:30:37 PM »
I just built a 5\" beam and preserved the steering stops. I modified it and welded it to the shock tower. I think if you go 6\" the steering stop is a throw away, your probably not worried about it at 120MPH at the track though!

Offline Trevor P

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« Reply #12 on: April 08, 2005, 06:26:09 PM »
I just finished narrowing my K&L beam for the 56 on the weekend. I went 4\" and I thought it looked tiny afterwards. I see you pretty much had to go that narrow due to your brake/wheel and spindle offset. Do you have any interferance between the left tierod, and the shock when turning?
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 06:27:10 PM by Trevor P »
'53 Barndoor single cab
'57 Cal-look oval 2332cc / Berg 5
'70 911T

Offline jim martin

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« Reply #13 on: April 08, 2005, 07:56:46 PM »
yes correct my centerlines have very little offset.so using a very narrow beam was the only option if i wanted to keep the centerlines under the fenders .after looking at the photo at least i know the discs are getting direct airflow. :D
as far as clearance issue's there is none at all.everthing clears and operates fine.i was a little worried the first time at work doing the alignment but everthing adjusted great.and yes the original steering stops are gone but i have a neet setup now using piece's cut from a old trans urathane mount.one bolts to the shock tower inbetween the beam and the left inner tie rod joint hits it.and the other clips to the right tie rod which in turn bumps into the frame head.the reason i need these was do to the fact that the wheels would rub on the inner wells at full crank.
if you are making your own please make sure your welds penatrate the correct amount. i took mine to a local welder down the road and he used a stick welder on it.he said because of the thickness of the material and the importance for stength that a stick would give the best penetration.well he must of known something as its still together and a bounced it around pretty good.




the 'WOK" June 2006 Hot VW's feature car  9.830 sec at 143.44 mph.
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