Atom Werk Engineering experience??

[s3racing]

Has anyone worked with these rear drop plates on their car. Any Positive or Negative feed back on function or design? Or is there a Canadian equivalent that's locally available?

Thanks for any Input
Cheers René

[s3racing]

I guess my real question is is this over kill or just a better method of lowering the rear vs indexing the rear spring plate. I plan to lower the rear 2 - 2.5 inches in the rear at the max.
And are the needle bearings that much better than the urethan bushings more commonly used for the rear spring plates.

As far as my research has found out the front beam uses needle bearings for the arms. Any reason why that is from factory needle front bushings rear? I think i probably need to do some more reading in the shop talk link that owdlvr added to one of my last ? maybe ill find the answers there that im looking for.

Rene

[s3racing]

I took the plunge and ordered the "deluxe assembled set"
2" drop plates with needle bearings in translucent red. He said about a 6 week delivery time as they are custom made per application. Going to 21 ¾" length bars. Not sure about the shocks yet.
I hope it's a worth while buy!!
Mixed emotions on this one.

[Jeremy]

Keep us posted.

[notorious B.U.G.]

I have been looking at the Atomwerk stuff too. I think the science of drop plates is sound, just like drop spindles. Raise the axle centreline while leaving the suspension in a stock configuration. This allows almost full suspension travel and maintain close to stock geometry.
I am sure the use of a rubber bushing in the rear springplate by VW is for NVH and most obviously cost. The Beetle was supposed to be a cheap car for the masses. It seems like urethane is an acceptable upgrade from rubber for most people. It squeaks but at least it deflects less than rubber, thereby maintaining the alignment of the rear axle better.
I think the needle bearings in the Atomwerk arms are a good thing by completely eliminating any deflection in the arm and friction from the bushing, but I am pretty sure they will make the suspension noisier to a degree.
I was going to order their adjustable IRS drop plates but I don't think they would have worked on my application, Early straight shock tower pan with IRS. The IRS spring plate is so much shorter than a SA one and I couldn't see how a Drop plate would work for me because of clearance issues. But If you have a SA car there would be no problem with a drop plate.
I actually am thinking of using these  PolyBronze™ Suspension Bearings with some 944 spring plates and weld in a centre spline adjuster.

http://www.elephantracing.com/suspension/bushings/944bushings.htm

Millions of people were happy with their rubber bushings, and I am sure thousands are happy with their Poly bushing so unless you are racing your car, especially autocross or track days I doubt most people would need needle bearing bushings.
But they are cool and the drop plate is supposed to maintain a good ride due to the torsion bar being properly under tension. I am sure you will like them.

[s3racing]

Still un sure of if i should have gone lower on the rear! or if 2" is enough hard for me to picture the difference between a 2" drop and 3" drop and what to much or not enough tough choices.
 
Either way they are paid for and being built. Now its a waiting game.

[notorious B.U.G.]

Unless you are going super low and building a show car, I think 2" a good choice. You can always index the arm to go lower but you have still got the advantage of the 2" drop. Is your car Swing Axle or IRS?

[s3racing]

75 standard IRS

[57rubindub]

So not to be a debbie downer.. If he is telling you 6 weeks be prepared to wait just a little bit longer, I ordered my set of deluxe drop plates and a 4" narrowed beam from Atomwerk back in February, and I still have not received it yet. every time I talk to him its another story of why it hasnt shipped. The last time I talked to him he said he was definitely shipping next week, that was over a month ago and still nothing.. I hope your experience goes better than mine is going.

[s3racing]

I'm hoping aswell. I'll keep you posted on how it turns out.

[57rubindub]

Please make sure I've got my stuff before you do that... Ive been waiting to long to go back now..

[s3racing]

Just a quick update. I received a mail today telling me that the spring plates are completed with exception to the needle bearings. Those are out of supply and Are ordered. As soon as they arrive the plates will be assembled and shipped out. But that it shouldn't be much of a delay.

[Bruce]

I think the science of drop plates is sound.

The spring plate is just a connection device between the torsion bar and the axle.  The shape of the spring plate is meaningless.  IOW, there is no difference between a suspension that has drop plates and stock that's been adjusted down by the same amount.
The only benefit a drop plate can provide is that it can be longer.  When severely lowered, a swing axle car needs longer spring plates to maintain proper toe-in.  Stock spring plates are not long enough on a severely lowered car.
Since you are only dropping the car by only 2", you are wasting your $ on aftermarket plates.

Needle brgs vs. grommets:
What problems are you having now with stock grommets that needs to be solved?  How did you determine that needle bearings will solve this problem?
One problem I can see caused by switching to needle bearings in the rear torsion bars is how are you going to keep water out?  The water is going to find it's way in and rust things.

[notorious B.U.G.]

What I meant Bruce is a new spring plate that has a dog leg designed into it is better than cutting notches out of a stock plate to get the rear ride height really low and not hit the torsion housing.
I originally thought S3's car was a swing axle car. I think drop plates would work best on a SA, especially if you want to get super low and have at least a bit of suspension travel.
Just for the sake of argument, assemble the rear suspension without the torsion bars and rubber bump stops. Stock spring plate on one side and a drop plate on the other. Both plates will be resting on the torsion housing in the same place, correct? So will the wheels be at the same ride hight? No because the dog leg drops the wheel an additional amount coinciding with how much drop the plate was built to. To bring the stock plate side down to match the drop plate side you are going to have to cut a notch in the stock plate making it weaker.
Looks like a meaningfull difference to me.
But yah if you are only lowering 2 inches you probably don't need them.

[Atomwerk]

So not to be a debbie downer.. If he is telling you 6 weeks be prepared to wait just a little bit longer, I ordered my set of deluxe drop plates and a 4" narrowed beam from Atomwerk back in February, and I still have not received it yet. every time I talk to him its another story of why it hasnt shipped. The last time I talked to him he said he was definitely shipping next week, that was over a month ago and still nothing.. I hope your experience goes better than mine is going.

Just a quick update. I received a mail today telling me that the spring plates are completed with exception to the needle bearings. Those are out of supply and Are ordered. As soon as they arrive the plates will be assembled and shipped out. But that it shouldn't be much of a delay.

S3racing is correct and I do apologize for the slow manufacturing time. We are almost there and 57rubindub, you will for sure be the first to receive your plates. We are known for two things: The best products you can buy for your VW and slowness unfortunately. I am too OCD to let any step in the manufacturing go unnoticed and it has proved to be quite a challenge to be such a small company that is doing such enormous things that have never before been done. So I thank everyone for their patience and want to assure you that we ALWAYS pull through. Even Larry Arrieta in last month's HOT VWs magazine had to wait a long time for his rear suspension. But it sure paid off for him. He has never driven a VW with a better ride!

[Atomwerk]

I think the science of drop plates is sound.

The spring plate is just a connection device between the torsion bar and the axle.  The shape of the spring plate is meaningless.  IOW, there is no difference between a suspension that has drop plates and stock that's been adjusted down by the same amount.
The only benefit a drop plate can provide is that it can be longer.  When severely lowered, a swing axle car needs longer spring plates to maintain proper toe-in.  Stock spring plates are not long enough on a severely lowered car.
Since you are only dropping the car by only 2", you are wasting your $ on aftermarket plates.

Needle brgs vs. grommets:
What problems are you having now with stock grommets that needs to be solved?  How did you determine that needle bearings will solve this problem?
One problem I can see caused by switching to needle bearings in the rear torsion bars is how are you going to keep water out?  The water is going to find it's way in and rust things.

Bruce there is actually a world of different between a drop plate and a factory plate that has been reindexed. The following are some bullet points:

1) A factory spring plate is preloaded at 20°. A drop plate installed correctly is indexed at 20° regardless of the drop that is chosen. A reindexed factory plate CANNOT be preloaded at 20° but a number substancially less like 12° for example. This tells us then that you must lose preload (initial effective stiffness in your suspension) in order to lower you VW the old way. The lower you go - the softer the ride.

2) A factory spring plate fits within the torsion housing (the lower stopper and upper stopper) so that the spring plate can articulate about 25% of the total travel downward and about 75% of the total travel upward. A reindexed factory spring plate CANNOT cannot articulate to factory specifications in any manner, but instead is forced to live closer to the upper stopper and father away from the lower stopper. Not enough upward travel and too much downward travel. What do you think this does for body roll and bump absorption???

3) Our needle bearing setup uses two seals inside the bearing itself and 3 external seals. It is redundant. Since they are lifetime warranty we figured we didn't want them coming back! Also don't forget that VW themselves made millions of needle bearing beams and they're still kickin.

[57rubindub]

So not to be a debbie downer.. If he is telling you 6 weeks be prepared to wait just a little bit longer, I ordered my set of deluxe drop plates and a 4" narrowed beam from Atomwerk back in February, and I still have not received it yet. every time I talk to him its another story of why it hasnt shipped. The last time I talked to him he said he was definitely shipping next week, that was over a month ago and still nothing.. I hope your experience goes better than mine is going.

Just a quick update. I received a mail today telling me that the spring plates are completed with exception to the needle bearings. Those are out of supply and Are ordered. As soon as they arrive the plates will be assembled and shipped out. But that it shouldn't be much of a delay.

S3racing is correct and I do apologize for the slow manufacturing time. We are almost there and 57rubindub, you will for sure be the first to receive your plates. We are known for two things: The best products you can buy for your VW and slowness unfortunately. I am too OCD to let any step in the manufacturing go unnoticed and it has proved to be quite a challenge to be such a small company that is doing such enormous things that have never before been done. So I thank everyone for their patience and want to assure you that we ALWAYS pull through. Even Larry Arrieta in last month's HOT VWs magazine had to wait a long time for his rear suspension. But it sure paid off for him. He has never driven a VW with a better ride!

Charles. Thanks for stepping up and addressing the concerns, I look forward to running a matched front and rear suspension set from Atomwerks. From the photos I have seen so far of my rear plates I am sure that they are going to exceed my expectations and truly be a system to beat. I cant wait to see the finished beam.

[s3racing]

Thanks Charles,
 For your input, it sure helped to put my mind at ease that what I ordered was the right product.
Looking forward to seeing the results on my car.

Cheers René

[Bruce]

1) A factory spring plate is preloaded at 20°. A drop plate installed correctly is indexed at 20° regardless of the drop that is chosen. A reindexed factory plate CANNOT be preloaded at 20° but a number substancially less like 12° for example. This tells us then that you must lose preload (initial effective stiffness in your suspension) in order to lower you VW the old way. The lower you go - the softer the ride.

2) A factory spring plate fits within the torsion housing (the lower stopper and upper stopper) so that the spring plate can articulate about 25% of the total travel downward and about 75% of the total travel upward. A reindexed factory spring plate CANNOT cannot articulate to factory specifications in any manner, but instead is forced to live closer to the upper stopper and father away from the lower stopper. Not enough upward travel and too much downward travel. What do you think this does for body roll and bump absorption???

This is the same BS that is spouted by those that don't understand engineering basics in order to baffle the customer into wasting $.

1)  The angle of the spring plate relative to the chassis has nothing to do with the spring rate of the torsion bar or the ride quality.  IOW, you don't get a "softer ride".  The diameter and length of the torsion bar are the only two factors that can alter the spring rate or ride quality.  The spring plate is just a connecting link.  Just like the front control arms on a torsion bar Beetle have no effect on the ride quality.

2)  The stock IRS torsion housing (that s3racing has) is capable of accommodating more travel than anyone needs.  If you remove the stock snubber, it is possible for the the trailing arm to go so high as to hit the top of the shock tower.  The spring plate is not the limiting factor!!!

[s3racing]

Bruce thanks for your input please excuse my ignorance or miss understanding of the concepts here. Correct me please if I'm wrong here, but wouldn't the level of preload on the spring also have an effect on the torsion spring? As the torsion spring acts progressive in its spring rate? Or is it linear spring function? Where the spring rate and stiffness are the same through out its travel range ?
If it has a progressive nature wouldn't the level of preload then have an effect on the initial "stiffness" of the suspension?
My main concern was maintaining the factory geometry, travel and functionality of the rear suspension. Similar to what drop spindles do for us on the front suspension when lowering. Or am I over thinking this in its application here?

I really do appreciate any input so I come out of this build wiser for maybe the next one!

Cheers René

[Bruce]

The spring rate or stiffness of a torsion bar is progressive like you said.  That means the more you wind it up, the stiffer the spring rate is.  The amount of wind-up on the Beetle rear torsion bar depends on the applied load and the distance from the centerline of the torsion bar.  Think about the torque on the bar.
There is a slight change in the distance from the torsion bar's centerline as the suspension compresses.  This distance is maximum when the axle is at the same level as the torsion bar.  Then as the wheel droops or rises, the distance slightly decreases. 
When you install those zig-zag spring plates, the angle from the bar's centerline to the axle's centerline is still exactly the same as with stock spring plates.  So if there's any change in ride quality due to lowering, the effect will be EXACTLY the same between the two spring plate designs.  Swing axle and IRS.

Swing axle:  If you look at the pics posted above, you can see the slots for the three bolts are a lot longer than stock.  This is because those spring plates are longer to allow you to set the toe-in correct when severely lowered.  To achieve proper toe with stock spring plates requires you to cut and extend them.

IRS:  Toe-in settings is not a problem with IRS.  As low as you want to go, toe does not change like it does with swing, so the stock slots are enough.

In the past, I've had my IRS Beetle very low on the rear.  Use Type 3 front snubbers.  Wheel alignment and ride quality are all good.

[Hansk]

I  would say by far the biggest affect on ride quality when lowering is the loss of travel and the fact that your riding on the snubbers more and less on the torsion bars .  Maybe I'm missing something but I don't believe these products relocate the snubbers.
As for geometry ,Bruce is correct ,  no matter what shape you make the spring plate , you still have to imagine a straight line from your torsion bar to your axle and the portion of that circle the axle will travel in as it rotates around the torsion bar. Nothing is going to change there.  Also , this can't be compared to the front suspension and dropped spindels as that is double trailing arms and pivot points and behaves differently.
I do agree that a longer spring plate is needed when "severely" lowering a swing axle car to correct the toe but you can't fix the severe camber .

[Atomwerk]

1) A factory spring plate is preloaded at 20°. A drop plate installed correctly is indexed at 20° regardless of the drop that is chosen. A reindexed factory plate CANNOT be preloaded at 20° but a number substancially less like 12° for example. This tells us then that you must lose preload (initial effective stiffness in your suspension) in order to lower you VW the old way. The lower you go - the softer the ride.

2) A factory spring plate fits within the torsion housing (the lower stopper and upper stopper) so that the spring plate can articulate about 25% of the total travel downward and about 75% of the total travel upward. A reindexed factory spring plate CANNOT cannot articulate to factory specifications in any manner, but instead is forced to live closer to the upper stopper and father away from the lower stopper. Not enough upward travel and too much downward travel. What do you think this does for body roll and bump absorption???

This is the same BS that is spouted by those that don't understand engineering basics in order to baffle the customer into wasting $.

1)  The angle of the spring plate relative to the chassis has nothing to do with the spring rate of the torsion bar or the ride quality.  IOW, you don't get a "softer ride".  The diameter and length of the torsion bar are the only two factors that can alter the spring rate or ride quality.  The spring plate is just a connecting link.  Just like the front control arms on a torsion bar Beetle have no effect on the ride quality.

2)  The stock IRS torsion housing (that s3racing has) is capable of accommodating more travel than anyone needs.  If you remove the stock snubber, it is possible for the the trailing arm to go so high as to hit the top of the shock tower.  The spring plate is not the limiting factor!!!

Let's not forget that I am a mechanical engineer and am well versed in engineering principles. The following quote is where you contradict yourself:

The spring rate or stiffness of a torsion bar is progressive like you said.  That means the more you wind it up, the stiffer the spring rate is.  The amount of wind-up on the Beetle rear torsion bar depends on the applied load and the distance from the centerline of the torsion bar.  Think about the torque on the bar.
There is a slight change in the distance from the torsion bar's centerline as the suspension compresses.  This distance is maximum when the axle is at the same level as the torsion bar.  Then as the wheel droops or rises, the distance slightly decreases. 
When you install those zig-zag spring plates, the angle from the bar's centerline to the axle's centerline is still exactly the same as with stock spring plates.  So if there's any change in ride quality due to lowering, the effect will be EXACTLY the same between the two spring plate designs.  Swing axle and IRS.

Swing axle:  If you look at the pics posted above, you can see the slots for the three bolts are a lot longer than stock.  This is because those spring plates are longer to allow you to set the toe-in correct when severely lowered.  To achieve proper toe with stock spring plates requires you to cut and extend them.

IRS:  Toe-in settings is not a problem with IRS.  As low as you want to go, toe does not change like it does with swing, so the stock slots are enough.

In the past, I've had my IRS Beetle very low on the rear.  Use Type 3 front snubbers.  Wheel alignment and ride quality are all good.

I need to correct you here in front of everybody here Bruce because you are incorrectly trying to educate the public. The spring rate is a function of the torsion bar, which is a spring in twist. The spring rate never changes and is a linear function. The force produced is a function of the spring rate, and that is that part that changes. In other words, the more you twist a torsion bar - the harder it will resist you. If you do not twist at all the torsion bar will not resist at all. The force given back by the torsion bar is expressed as a "moment". You were right in saying, "The angle of the spring plate relative to the chassis has nothing to do with the spring rate of the torsion bar or the ride quality" because that was manufactured into the torsion bar from the factory. However you were wrong is saying, "IOW, you don't get a "softer ride"" because you are missing one key element here: THE EFFECTIVE STIFFNESS (TORSION). That's right. Not the stiffness of the torsion bar. Remember that a "moment" is expressed as FORCE X PERPENDICULAR DISTANCE, which is the distance of the torsion bar to the axle (yes, that invisible line, Hansk). It is actually this moment that we feel as a rider in the car and we refer to it as the suspension stiffness because most people are not engineers realizing that "stiffness" is a function of the torsion bar. That is why I refer to THE EFFECTIVE STIFFNESS, or TORSION as the stiffness that we feel change when we reindex plates and it effects the ride quality 100%.

Secondly, the hard stops are there to limit travel so that the torsion bar does not fail. A torsion bar will only twist so far before it fails. This is known as yielding and where this happens on a torsion bar depends on its thickness and length. So be careful about advising, "If you remove the stock snubber, it is possible for the the trailing arm to go so high as to hit the top of the shock tower" because this is how you fail a torsion bar!

I am an engineer and so I can speak for many of my peers who sometimes get lost in all of the equations and make stupid statements without examining all of the evidence. To say, "well the stiffness in the torsion bar cannot be changed so even though my body tells me that the ride is softer, it must be lying to me" is ignoring your intuition. The truth here is that you don't have to be an engineer to understand what is going on with a drop plate because it just makes intuitive sense. You lessen the angle of pre-load - you soften the ride. You increase the angle of pre-load - your harden the ride. Put in a drop plate, use factory pre-load, and it articulates withing the hard stops of the torsion housing just like a factory spring plate. Sounds like a win-win!! However the bottom line is that it is all 100% mathematical and calculable using free body diagrams and I have done my homework. I have sold thousands of drop plates and raise plates, and there is now even world records being set with them in Bill Hatfield's car. I haven't had one customer drive on one and tell me that his ride quality did not SIGNIFICANTLY improve. Have you done your homework on the topic, Bruce? Have you ever driven on an Atomwerk drop plate?

I encourage anyone who wants to visit the battle of the drop plate on the Samba. Just search "The right way to lower or raise the rear of an air-cooled VW" and prepare yourself for a debate.

[Bruce]

I need to correct you here in front of everybody here Bruce because .............

I see, this is all about publicly shaming me, is it?

Your whole post just confirms what I say about sellers trying to baffle the customers with BS.  You use technical terms the layman won't understand, and you don't explain anything about how your product achieves your claims!
What is "Effective Stiffness"?  Define it.
 

....... you are missing one key element here: THE EFFECTIVE STIFFNESS (TORSION). That's right. Not the stiffness of the torsion bar. Remember that a "moment" is expressed as FORCE X PERPENDICULAR DISTANCE, which is the distance of the torsion bar to the axle (yes, that invisible line, Hansk). It is actually this moment that we feel as a rider in the car and we refer to it as the suspension stiffness because most people are not engineers realizing that "stiffness" is a function of the torsion bar. That is why I refer to THE EFFECTIVE STIFFNESS, or TORSION as the stiffness that we feel change when we reindex plates and it effects the ride quality 100%.

Note to everyone:  A "Moment" is a technical term engineers like to use because they know the layman doesn't understand what it is.  When they want to baffle you with BS, this term comes out.  A moment is simply a torque.

 

So be careful about advising, "If you remove the stock snubber, it is possible for the the trailing arm to go so high as to hit the top of the shock tower" because this is how you fail a torsion bar!

I never advised anyone to remove the snubber and go out for a drive.  It was simply to demonstrate that the suspension travel limit has NOTHING to do with the spring plate.  I'll say it again, the stock spring plate is not the limiting factor for suspension travel, so your zig-zag plates do nothing here.

To say, "well the stiffness in the torsion bar cannot be changed so even though my body tells me that the ride is softer, it must be lying to me" is ignoring your intuition. The truth here is that you don't have to be an engineer to understand what is going on with a drop plate because it just makes intuitive sense.

So anything that makes intuitive sense is correct?  I think most people will agree that it makes intuitive sense that the sun revolves around the earth, so according to you, it must be true!

You lessen the angle of pre-load - you soften the ride. You increase the angle of pre-load - your harden the ride. Put in a drop plate, use factory pre-load, and it articulates withing the hard stops of the torsion housing just like a factory spring plate.

Here's your fatal error.  The angle of the pre-load is the line from the center of the torsion bar to the center of the axle, relative to a fixed reference.  Stock spring plates or your spring plates, this angle is the same for a given ride height.  The shape of the spring plate has no effect on the pre-load.

.... it is all 100% mathematical and calculable using free body diagrams and I have done my homework.

And yet you show us none of this "proof".

....... there is now even world records being set with them in Bill Hatfield's car.

I bet there are hundreds more records set using stock spring plates.

I haven't had one customer drive on one and tell me that his ride quality did not SIGNIFICANTLY improve.

Placebo effect.  They just spent big $, and they really want there to be an improvement.  You and everyone else telling them how much better it will be just clouds their objective judgement.

[Atomwerk]

Please visit my suspension tech page on my website. I address ALL of these issues that Bruce it trying to point out and more there. Thank you for your passion Bruce.

[s3racing]

I received a mail from Atomwerks today notifying me that my spring plates will be shipped out tomorrow via. Express. Looking forward to seeing the parts on my car! And more to be able to report here about my personal experience with the plates on my car.

Thanks Charles for coming through on delivery by the end of this month. Cheers

[s3racing]

Got the tracking code from ups last night. They are on the way!! Thanks for making it happen Charles / Atomwerks

[s3racing]

And they have arrived, well kind of just over the boarder. My dad will pick them on the morrow. And maybe he'll send me a couple pictures to post up here so everyone can see them.
I'm glad it worked out in the end. Relief sigh

[57rubindub]

FML...
Congratulations! Im sure they are going to be awsome!

[silas]

So not to be a debbie downer.. If he is telling you 6 weeks be prepared to wait just a little bit longer, I ordered my set of deluxe drop plates and a 4" narrowed beam from Atomwerk back in February, and I still have not received it yet. every time I talk to him its another story of why it hasnt shipped. The last time I talked to him he said he was definitely shipping next week, that was over a month ago and still nothing.. I hope your experience goes better than mine is going.

Just a quick update. I received a mail today telling me that the spring plates are completed with exception to the needle bearings. Those are out of supply and Are ordered. As soon as they arrive the plates will be assembled and shipped out. But that it shouldn't be much of a delay.

S3racing is correct and I do apologize for the slow manufacturing time. We are almost there and 57rubindub, you will for sure be the first to receive your plates. We are known for two things: The best products you can buy for your VW and slowness unfortunately. I am too OCD to let any step in the manufacturing go unnoticed and it has proved to be quite a challenge to be such a small company that is doing such enormous things that have never before been done. So I thank everyone for their patience and want to assure you that we ALWAYS pull through. Even Larry Arrieta in last month's HOT VWs magazine had to wait a long time for his rear suspension. But it sure paid off for him. He has never driven a VW with a better ride!

And they have arrived...

FML...
Congratulations! Im sure they are going to be awsome!

so 57rubindub...have you received your plates?

if yes, congrats!

if no, time to pick up the phone and make the call and get it sorted out!