Anyone Try Schubecks?

[Bugboy696]

I ordered a set of schubeck lifters and was wondering if anyone else has had any experience with them? or what they think of them?

something is going funky in my 2275 right now.... pretty sure the cam is going flat, I keep on having to adjust the lash and i bent a pushrod (from excessive lash i think).


how many flat cam experiences is there on the forum?

 

[notchback]

A LOT

[James Buchan]

To many!

[Bugboy696]

did i bring up a touchy subject? :unsure:  

[Trevor P]

did i bring up a touchy subject? :unsure:

Only with the majority of the aircooled community! :lol:

Have you put the dial indicator on it yet to see if the suspected lobe is going flat. I hate to say it, but your chances are pretty good.

[Klaatu]

If u need Schubecks we have 7 sets coming in next week.Give us a call and we will try to save u a little cash if we can. TJ

[Bugboy696]

If u need Schubecks we have 7 sets coming in next week.Give us a call and we will try to save u a little cash if we can. TJ

Thanks, I got mine for the old price of $400 thou   Somehow i ordered off there old page and then i called up and they gave them to me for that price!

I was going to order them from you guys if they didn't give me the good price thou!


And ya i did measure them before, but I can't seem to find my paper that I wrote it on....  Doesn't matter thou, I putting the schubecks in there for the piece of mind. Its not a question if, its when they are going to go...  

[Billyisgr8]

With all the problems with lifters, I thought I would comit the ultimate engine builders sin, I  threw in a used german set, and an old used bugpack cam into my engine, they were not matched either.  We'll see how long it lasts.  I will laugh if it lasts longer than the rest of the engine does.  Atleast it is a drag only engine, so if I get 50 passes that is good.  


Kevin

[James Buchan]

Atleast it is a drag only engine

It needs to be fast first then doesn't it?

[flat4]

This will totally sound like an ignorant quesiton.

How does one know when their cam has gone flat?

The reason I ask is this.  Guys have been doing the big motor thing since the 60s and 70s.  I've been into the VW scene for 14 years now, and only this past summer have I heard anything about cams going flat.  That's 14 years (given, only 2 years of performance stuff) without a peep about flat cams.

My head can't be buried that deep in the sand.  What causes this to happen to someone's engine?  What happened to the \"I got 100,000 miles on the same street engine\"?

[Bugboy696]

I think its the quality of parts we are getting now.... The lifters start to pitt and then they chew at the cam.

You can measure the lift at the pushrod with a dial indicater. Or if you have to constantly adjust your valves, thats a pretty good indication.



I thought that my cam was going flat but, I was looking at my rocker arms today and it looks like the pushrod ends are wearing into the rocker.... So my cam/lifters might be ok still.    Same problem in the end thou, cheap parts!

[Billyisgr8]

The way I see it is old german lifters and any old performance cam is good to use.

Kevin

[Hansk]

I've personally seen the cam and lifter wear issue for about
2 years I think.  It seems to be all over the map from the people
who do get 100,000 miles to the ones that go flat during break
in.  It seems everything has been blamed at one time or another.
I still have not heard the final anwser to the cause yet.
I do know this , a friends 1914 with a engle 110 and some over
the counter brand of lifter and SINGLE springs pitted the lifters
big time after only 10-20 hours of use.
Now I'm looking at buying a new cam lifter combo for another motor
and I don't know what the Hell to do.  Schubecks are not an option  
for me.

SOMEONE HELP US!!!

[jim martin]

SOMEONE HELP US!!!
[thats funny]


 

--i've given up,measuring lifter face crown/cam shaft taper ,bla,bla bla,bla 3 cams and lifters. the cost of schubecks would of been cheaper from the start.
best advise is pay once and cry once.
but if you are a sucker for more punishment this is what i did and i think i almost made it.the last cam all the lobe tips were a nice work hardend tone and all my lifters except for one were perfect.
--ran a looser side clearance on the rods with 3 small grooves on the big ends of the rods for more oil spin off.[got the idea from a berg book]
--ran a engine oil with a high amount of zinc and moly as well as gm's e.o.s.
--stock pushrods and rockers .ran it for 2- 20 min cycles at 2500 rpm.replace oil and filter and went for a 45 min cruise.next day swaped out my pushrods and rockers and forgot about it.this time my crank went before my cam.the only thing i would do differant is if i was going to do steel followers again is run only outer springs  and maybe do a couple more drive cycles with full cool downs.as well as make sure the cam has tapper and the lifters have the .002 crown
--i was told that all my cam falures were caused by too high spring pressures .so another tip is to make sure you use the correct size intake valve and the correct spring pressure needed for your intended use and keep the rest of the valve train light.for eg .i use aircooled.nets aluminum pushrods and titanum retainers
-there is alot more ways to save more weight in the valve train but by time you've done that you might as well bought composite lifters and run high pressures on the springs because the cost will be the same.
good luck!!!!


 

[flat4]

After re-reading this post, I have yet another question to ask.

I remember an article I read about jagged edges on the cam lobes.  Has everone that has experienced flat cam/lifter issue actually smoothed out the sides of the lobes and still experienced the same issue?  What were the indicators that the cam was going flat?

[James Buchan]

Hey Hans - I have a NOS Sig Erson (similar to a 110) cam that would work perfectly with stock german lifters if your interested.

[Bubba]

If anyone seriously wants to get to the bottom of this problem, then let me know.

I have access to a metallurgical lab and a very talented group of engineers and scientists that are specialists in various types of failure mechanisms.

The reason that this has never been done for this problem, is that the time and effort it takes to accumulate data, do forensic analysis on the failed components, etc. would take tens of thousands of dollars to do properly. Who do you think would spend that kinds of money?  Not the manufacturers or the retailers!

So if all of you are interested in gaining some knowledge about this condition, what causes it, and how it can be avoided, we would need to do the following:

I would need sample of as many failed lifters - with the corresponding cam lobes as i can get.  I would need accurate information about the source of the components, installation, break-in procedures, and miles (or kms) to failure.  

It would be preferable to get parts that showed incipient failure, or the condition starting to manifest, although totally failed components are helpful.

How can I get all this work done you say?  I will do all the data collection, prepare all the samples etc. on my own free time, barter for time on the SEM, and call in a few favors with my engineer friends.

What's in it for me?  I get to do a real interesting project which will eventually be formallized as a study paper that gets me some ceu's towards my engineering degree.

Sorry to hijack this thread, but if you guys really want to get a heads up on this and be first to get the poop on this dastardly problem, pm me

Csaba
 

[Bugboy696]

guess people aren't to interested about Bubba's idea?


I got my schubeck lifters yesterday and they are absolutely awesome!!!
They are smooth as glass and light as plastic.  

 

[Bubba]

guess people aren't to interested about Bubba's idea?


 

Everyone knows what the problem is.  It has to do with spring tension, lubrication, and to a lesser degree...mass.  I just thought that someone might have wanted to do a bit of a study to determine which lifters to steer clear of when running high spring tension/rpms.

Csaba

[jim martin]

i would of loved to give you my old parts but it was to late ,all my cams and lifters were already sent back for warrenty

[Hansk]

That's not the good news I wanted to hear. I really hoped you would get alot of response . Unfortunatly , the lifters we pitted are long gone .  Interestingly , they were not a case of spring presure or lube or mass(I don't think?) Just an engle 110 and regular bugpack singles , and some over the counter lifters we were assured would be fine.  They were very pitted and dished in probably under 20 hrs of use.  My lifters did not have that much wear after almost 20 years!

So is this what it's come to? Try to help a buddy out with a budget motor
and I have to tell him he's got to buy schubecks?

[Bubba]

Interestingly , they were not a case of spring presure or lube or mass(I don't think?) Just an engle 110 and regular bugpack singles , and some over the counter lifters we were assured would be fine.  They were very pitted and dished in probably under 20 hrs of use.  My lifters did not have that much wear after almost 20 years!

So is this what it's come to? Try to help a buddy out with a budget motor
and I have to tell him he's got to buy schubecks?

There are a lot of different factors involved in why the lifter faces spall (pit).  Often it is something as simple as improper work hardening, or other types of material incompatibility.   The bottom line is that the lifter faces would not have spalled had the conditions been right.  

Does this mean that in your application the Bugpack units turned out to be crappy?  Was the metallurgy of your cam lobes a bit different than the standard run of the mill Engle 110?

Abnormal wear usually implies that there is an upset that shifts something away from the very  specific conditions  that need to exist at the contact face.  Often these are user defined (higher spring tension, etc).

The point of doing forensic analysis is to match data to the physical condition as observed using metallographic and other destructive means.

My chief engineer is on-side and is looking forward to help out on this project.  Alas, so far no one other than you and bugboy696 has even commented on it.  

I kinda thought there would be more interest in this, and with all of the anecdotal experience around, I figured there would be more than just a few samples to test.

I talked to Geoff last year about doing random hardness tests (nondestructive) on some lifters they had at the shop, but nothing ever came of it.

Sorry to hijack this thread.  FYI, I bought Schubeck lifters last year for my motor.

Csaba

[dannyboy]

i would say post up on the cal-look forum, and you would get tons of response
i would have given you my semi failed cam/lifters, but about a month ago i got angry at them and threw them out....