New 2332 cc

[egspot]

sorry i did not look in my inbox for awhile .
neil you don't have the gearing to run a 86c ,that cam makes top end /higher rpm power.when i ran that i was turning N/A 7500 rpm all gears and with Nitrous between 8500 -9000 rpm .
with your current stock 1 and 2   , ? on the ring with a not so low 3rd and 4th you will not get the motor into the rpm range needed for a 86c .you need gears not a cam .
gearing and cam work hand in hand , and need to be carfully selected.
 eg :my N/A gearing with a 3.88 ring was selected to pull a 86c or larger duration cam, 4.11/2.47/1.71/1.31.that gearing and cam was able to run mid 12's at 108 mph in a 1850 lb car but rpm was high but it was planned to turn over 7500 rpm at the finnish line .in your case you will never be able to keep the motor in the power band above 6500 + rpm .to run 105 mph with a 1.04 4th you will be turning 4700 rpm ,forget it.the cam will not help .
does this make sence ? you have the dyno results ,you need to calculate usable rpm range .upper and lower rpm window  and design your gearing around it . or if you want to leave your gear box alone and not split the case a better cost effective solution is to add nitrous ,with your gearing and present cam and a 50 shot will make huge torque ,you can easily drop a second as well as keep good street gearing .
if you need to understand more about gearing and cam relationship call me

WOW, that is some cool stuff . I almost felt like I should have had a smoke by the time i finished it.

[neil68]

Hi Jim,

I will give you a call one of these days.  Here was some of the factors I considered:

W-120: 253 degrees (at valve 0.050"/1.25 rockers), 0.496". Got me into the 14's a couple years ago.

FK8: 258 degrees, 0.534" (1.4 rockers).  Very streetable and produced 13.1 second 1/4-mile at 2,200 ft elevation (probably high 12's at sea level).

FK10: 266 degrees, 0.539".  Most mentioned that I probably wouldn't see much improvement...maybe a tenth or two.  Not worth swapping the FK8 for.

86C: 272 degrees, 0.546"  Several recommended this as the best choice for heavy (stock) Beetles, with stock or close to stock gearing...still streetable, however.  Head guy also recommended as a good choice along with CB 2289?

FK87: 276 degrees, 0.561"  Not as streetable...more for hardcore racing or limited street driving.

You make a good point about my gearing and I'm not sure what gears I'll end up with.  I talked with Sam at Rancho and also someone with the 86C, 4.125 and 1.14 fourth who was running 11's in a full-weight Beetle, so they both thought mid-low 12's was do-able.

Time will tell.  I like to make one change at a time, so I'll try the 86C with no other changes and then address gearing, tire size, etc...

[nivag]

You will see better results by lowering the gearing than changing cams.

My oval with 2332, small port 044's, 86c, stock weight... didnt get into 12's until I changed to 4.12r&p with 1.48/1.14. With that combo ran 12.70's all day long and still streetable.

Good luck, Gavin

[neil68]

Thanks for the input...someone else also recommended the 4.125 with 1.14 4th.

I currently have a 4.125 with 1.04 4th, so I'm just a bit taller.  I'll probably just see what happens with this tranny, since I haven't broken it yet

Then I'll consider the 1.14 or maybe even a 1.21 or other.  How do you like your 1.14 on the highway?

[neil68]

Webcam 86C dyno test.  Well, I removed the FK8 and replaced it with the Web 86C.  On the Dynojet, this produced 11 HP more, with a peak of 180.4 HP at the wheels at ~6,000 rpms.  We didn't do any jet changes, just played with the timing a bit.  Thanks for all the input!  Here's one of the charts:



Here's a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Of3rpUDIRxA

[neil68]

Went racing again tonight in Calgary and got a new best ET of 13.177 seconds at 100.48 MPH for the Race City track.

I've run this fast before, but only at lower altitude in Edmonton (2,200 ft), so these were my first 100 MPH runs in Calgary (3,300 ft).

Bruce:  I installed the 170 main jets and 210 air correctors that you recommended and I think it must have made the difference.

Just waiting for the close-ratio tranny to arrive from Rancho...thanks for recommending Mike Herbert (I emailed him and he took the time to phone me to discuss gearing...and was a pleasure to talk with

[neil68]

Went racing in Edmonton last night, at the Castrol Raceway Street Legals.  Got five races in before the lineup got too long, with a new best ET of 13.120 seconds at 100.88 MPH, still using the 1.04 fourth gear tranny setup.  It was a warm night, so the 2,200 ft elevation was higher due to the air quality.

Best 60' was 1.750 seconds without a burnout.

I think that will be all for this tranny, so hopefully I'll get the Rancho 1.31 4th tranny ready for next week at Race City...

[jim martin]

I think that will be all for this tranny, so hopefully I'll get the Rancho 1.31 4th tranny ready for next week at Race City...

get ready to rev , 8500 rpm here you come

[Bruce]

... a new best ET of 13.120 seconds at 100.88 MPH,

Same jets as in Calgary?
I think you're gonna run out of gear with the new gearbox.

[neil68]

New gearbox is 3.875 R/P with 1.31 fourth, while the current one is 4.125 and 1.04 fourth.  I'll have to play with the jetting some more...

[neil68]

Here's a few pictures from Castrol Raceway Street Legals (Edmonton), courtesy of btljuce.  This drag strip is similar to Mission, in that we race into the sun (fortunately the clouds helped out on Friday).  Best ET was 13.120 seconds and best top end speed was 101.35 MPH:

[neil68]

Installed the new Rancho tranny and went racing last night at Race City in Calgary.  Unfortunately, the track was not prepped, and the first 60-330 ft was very slippery in both lanes.  Most of the drag cars fishtailed at the start and then packed it in for the night (they're racing today).

I had the same traction problem, with my 60' time being 2.195 seconds on the first run, then got down into the 1.8-1.9 range as the traction improved during the night.

Then on my sixth and final race, I got a 1.750 for the 60' and a 13-second run.  Air density was 4,800 ft, so better than most nights, but not enough for a 12.9 race.

The good news was a new best top-end speed of 102.71 MPH.  I hit the 7,000 rev limiter twice, so I think I'll try a 7400 chip next time.  Will also make another trip to Castrol Raceway in Edmonton, to try their low altitude track

[Chris]

How much does your car weigh?

[neil68]

It weighed 1,750 lbs the last time it was on the scale...plus me at 215.

I know I need to lose weight, as does the car

[neil68]

Update:  Got seven races in last night at Race City (Calgary) with a new best ever ET of 13.104 seconds at 101.78 MPH.  My 60' was 1.803 seconds, as the traction was a bit sketchy.  It's nice to be chipping away at the ET, so I think I'll try to get to Castrol Raceway (Edmonton) next Friday and go for a 12.9.

I changed the MSD chip to 8,000 rpm, as I kept hitting the 7,000 rev limiter in first and second.  I'm trying to shift at 7,100-7,200 rpm now.

Any suggestions on tire pressure for M&H DOT 215/65B15's?  I've been down as low as 17-18 lb., but often bog at the start.  Here's a video from last night:

View My Video

[Chris]

what rpm are you trying to launch at?

[neil68]

I've tried various launch rpms...but it seems to work best at around 5,800-6,000 as I can sometimes get a 1.750-second 60', which is the best I've had with this Beetle.

[jim martin]

1850 lbs with driver , 7400 -7700 rpm , 14 lbs on the M&H dot's-22 mm bars , cut bus snubbers , ce shock all around , netted wheels up and low 1.6 60 ft .
that was my original setup
i would not worry about launch so much as much as i would work on dial-in .roll away from the start say at 3500 rpm every time and shift like a robot at say 6800 rpm every gear . then make one timing change or jetting change and watch your mph .if you gain mph your on the correct path .if you loose mph your not, this saves your tranny and clutch until you need to or want to gain that extra mph or few 10 ths 

[neil68]

Thanks for the info, Jim.

I will continue experimenting with tire pressures and launch/shift rpms...off to the races again tomorrow night

[neil68]

Another night of 13.1-second ET's at 102 MPH...I'll say one thing, this Beetle is consistent   Air density was over 4,000 ft again, so not great.  60' times were still poor...1.8 was the best of the night.

After reading Kevin's thread, I decided to check the NHRA conversion charts and found that 13.1 seconds at 3,300 ft elevation is equivalent to 12.7 seconds at sea level.  So, perhaps that is about all this combo can do, at least with me driving.

Since I'm currently running 1.4 rockers, I might try some 1.5's, since we're down to the last two weeks of racing in Calgary.  Here's a photo from Race City tonight:

[OUTKAST]

NIce shot and love the car nice meeting you this year Good luck with your racing

[Billyisgr8]

Hmmmm, my  5.5" slicks with 25psi right side -28psi  left side  of air, 1850 lbs,  no burnout, 3:88 with a 3.78 first gear, completely stock rear irs , stage 2  hd daiken , has got me a best of 1.712 launching at 6000rpm, and I am really trying to let out my clutch foot slowly so I do not break my stock tranny.  I'm suprised your 60's are not lower, or maybe it's my irs keeping the tire planted on the ground better, even though my right side trailing arm is bent and my negative camber is 3/4 inch.  Your car is very consistant, can't argue that. I bet you will break into the 12's at Edmonton. Have you tried slipping your clutch at the launch by slowing down your left foot? How about shallow staging ( just barely getting the second bulb to come on)  so your car is moving faster when you leave the lights to start the clock?   Do you take your fan belt off for each pass?  fan belt equals 2.7 - 3 tenths, atleast on my car thats what I get.


Kevin

[neil68]

Raced at Castrol Raceway in Edmonton last night at their Street Legals...there was a huge turnout!  Got four races in between the 6:00 pm start and 10:30 pm.  Just as I was leaving, to drive back to Calgary, the announcer said they were going to spray the track, for the gamblers round...which was all the 9-11 second cars racing for the nightly pot of $.  He said they often race until 4:00 am and this might just be one of those nights as conditions were excellent.  Oh, well, I'll have to plan an overnighter next time

The good news?  Finally got the Beetle into the 12's.  I knew it would be a good night when I ran 13.008 ET on the first run, when the weather was still warm.

-13.008 ET, 1.765 (60'), 103.08 MPH
-12.957 ET, 1.762, 103.24 MPH
-12.964 ET, 1.783, 103.23 MPH
-12.942 ET, 1.776, 104.27 MPH


I dropped the tires to 17 lb. and tried the higher launch rpms as Jim suggested and people were coming up to me saying that the front wheels were lifting and that I was launching very hard.  I raced an SRT8 with 500 HP and he just caught me at the 1/4-mile and he had an automatic, while I was madly trying to shift, watch him and also watch my tach...which is under the ashtray...I'll have to move it next year

[Billyisgr8]

Way to go Neil...  So what rpm did you end up launching at? 

Kevin

[neil68]

I'm not sure of the exact launch rpms, but between 6,000 and 7,000.  I have a small VDO tach under the ashtray, so it's difficult to see precisely what the revs are...and also keep an eye on the tree

I think I'll mount the tach up on the dash for next year!

[jim martin]

there are a couple of things i noticed using a 3.88 ring and a 4.11 first .this may help.
i'm actually in 1st gear for 0.8 of a sec then shift .this does not help your 60 ' as you can imaging shifting to 2nd
gear kills the 60' time .the best i have actually got my car to 60' was around the 1.5 zone .car was launched at almost 8000 rpm
13 lbs in the rear tires and shifting into 2nd at 9000 rpm .i was never able to be consistent as there was to many track variables
that would not allow for repeat low 60'.
still i would recommend launching at at least 7400 rpm with your cam and gearing .
here are some random launching things to think about.
-once staged and you preload the driveline .lock the rear wheels and push the clutch to the floor .you will not unload the preloaded trans as it is held in the forward preloaded state by the locked rear wheels.
-if you do lots of racing, run more crank end play like .008 " to allow for more oil cushion against the #1bearing and flywheel.
-if you bog on the line you are doing more damage than spinning a bit .think of all the forward motion/energy from the clutch disc ,through the complete trans ,axles and finally at the tires .the tires bite and your motor bogs .there is now a complete reverse power wave back through the axles to the trans to the disc ,the your motor starts to make power and the whole wave changes direction again in the forward motion .the stress in the trans and drive line because of this reversing and appling wave is massive and highly destructive .avoid bogging
-avoid bogging at all costs by upping your launch rpm or increasing your tire pressures .its better to spin than bog .
- small motors need more rpm on the line than big motors to prevent bogging
-get someone to film your launch ,paint a white mark on the sidewall and watch for at least 1/2 the sidewall disappearing into the fender.
-set rear wheels about 1/2 deg positive while at rest .
- release the clutch smooth instead of side stepping it .
-try both methods .pedal to the floor bouncing of the rev limiter or using a combo of pedal position and rev limiter .
- if you spin to much at the line decrease air pressure or decrease rpm by 100
- only change one thing at a time .weather its rpm or tire pressures or shock settings etc .or you will never know what works best .
- if you have rear wheel hop , stop and figure it out quick .
- if your ring starts to sing shut it down before its too late .

[neil68]

Thanks for the insight, Jim!  I am certainly wary of stressing my tranny too much, so I like the concept of spinning the wheels a bit on launch.

I'm going to drive up to Edmonton again on Saturday, as their final street legal event of the season is a Saturday-Sunday format.  It's supposed to be cool, around 10-12 degrees, so it should make for some fast times.  Also, they are going to prep the track, as there is also a Street Car Shootout challenge:

[Bruce]

-once staged and you preload the driveline .lock the rear wheels and push the clutch to the floor .you will not unload the preloaded trans as it is held in the forward preloaded state by the locked rear wheels.

This might load the suspension, but once you push the clutch all the way to the floor, the whole driveline is not preloaded.
The clutch needs to be dragging a tiny bit on the clutch disc in order to preload right through the gearbox.

[Billyisgr8]

 I keep quite abit of pressure on my clutch at the light, infact you can see it on the one video I have of the rear of the car squating as I engange the clutch with quite abit of pressure.  I have allways done this, and must be doing something right for the tranny, I have way too many launches on this stocker since 2001.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LmJ7JcdQEk      This was a 1.76  60' in this video.  I launch at 6000rpm

Kevin

[Chris]

I keep quite abit of pressure on my clutch at the light, infact you can see it on the one video I have of the rear of the car squating as I engange the clutch with quite abit of pressure.  I have allways done this, and must be doing something right for the tranny, I have way too many launches on this stocker since 2001.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LmJ7JcdQEk      This was a 1.76  60' in this video.  I launch at 6000rpm

Kevin

your just lucky, your using the anti-shocker now right, that and you dont do burnouts, one slip of the foot off the clutch and your likely going to snap that mainshaft....