New 2332 cc

[neil68]

Finally got my 2332 cc into the Beetle for some test drives.  Last year this was a 2017 cc and made 131 HP at the wheels.  Any guesses on HP as a 2332?

FK8/1.4's, CB 044 Ultra Mag Plus heads now with 44 x 37 valves & porting/unshrouding by K-Roc, 1 3/4" header, IDA's with 42 vents, 10.5:1 CR, 3,600 ft. elevation (Calgary), etc.

I'd like to thank Darren Krewenchuk for taking the time to work on the heads/manifolds this winter.  During test drives, this motor certainly makes the Beetle scary to drive on the street

Also thanks to Bruce Tweddle for the longer clutch lever that now makes the KEP Stage 2 more bearable...what a great idea

We are buried in snow today in Calgary, but I hope to get on the Concept 1 chassis dyno for some tuning, as we start racing on May 16th.  Here's a few pics:

[Billyisgr8]

Way to go Neil, 3 weeks will fly by till the first race.

Kevin

[AlanU]

At the track: When you see the sky as you drop your clutch make a note of bladder control 

The mechanical fuel pump should suffice. Theres alot of time to consider an electric fuel pump setup (pump w/ extrernal reg or self regulated).  This will clean up the engine compartment and assure enough GPH to the IDA's. Since the motor is out you can modify the bottom of your tank to 1/4 NPT for larger flow out of tank and run a larger diameter fuel line in the tunnel.

OR

just tell me to shut and mind my own business    Seriously you'll have a hoot with the new HP!! You can keep your existing setup but make sure you have the IDA's float bowl modification. If you dont lean out on the top end  ...dont worry about the fuel system upgrade.

[silas]

looks like a monster neil!!! have fun with it.

[neil68]

At the track: When you see the sky as you drop your clutch make a note of bladder control 

The mechanical fuel pump should suffice. Theres alot of time to consider an electric fuel pump setup (pump w/ extrernal reg or self regulated).  This will clean up the engine compartment and assure enough GPH to the IDA's. Since the motor is out you can modify the bottom of your tank to 1/4 NPT for larger flow out of tank and run a larger diameter fuel line in the tunnel.

OR

just tell me to shut and mind my own business    Seriously you'll have a hoot with the new HP!! You can keep your existing setup but make sure you have the IDA's float bowl modification. If you dont lean out on the top end  ...dont worry about the fuel system upgrade.

Hi Alan,

I certainly value your input and experience, so keep the comments coming  

The float bowls were opened up by JayCee Enterprises (according to the previous owner of the IDA's).  I have thought about an electric pump and larger fuel vent and/or lines for the future.

[neil68]

Some pics from last season...ran 14.3 sec @ 94 MPH.  Hoping to run low 13's or maybe even high 12's, this year:

[neil68]

2332 cc update:  Got in seven races tonight at Race City in Calgary.

All races were in the 13's with a best of 13.245 seconds at 99.57 mph.  Air density altitude was 4,867 feet at 10 pm (the best of the night), when the above ET and MPH was registered.

1/8th speed was 81.87 mph...not sure if that is good or not...

Also a new best 60' of 1.750 seconds. Unfortunately, my tach decided to quit tonight, so I was just guessing on launch rpm's and shift points and hit the rev limiter a few times.

Dropped air pressure to 18 lbs in the M&H's tonight.

Going on the dyno next week for some tuning and to see if there are 12's in this combo.

PS: I must thank Darren for the head work, as one full second in ET is quite an improvement from last season!

[Bruce]

All races were in the 13's with a best of 13.245 seconds at 99.57 mph. 

Going on the dyno next week for some tuning and to see if there are 12's in this combo.

Drag that thing down here next month.  You'll get your 12 and then some.

Notwithstanding the dyno tuning, you've got more to go in your 60's.  How hard are you hitting it on the line?

[neil68]

Yes, I am going to try to make it to the GCVWS, provided work doesn't interfere...and fix the tach, so that I can test some different launch scenarios...

[Trevor P]

Way to go Neil.
Yeah Vancouver should provide you with 12's especially once you get some dyno & seat time with the new combo. Heck bring it out my way and you would be damn close to them too.

[neil68]

Update-Dynojet testing today:

The old fan belt broke on the first run (put two dents in my deck lid), so we ran without a belt: 169.2 HP and 165.9 ft. lb. torque.



Took a few runs with different timing and then a final run with another fan belt, but for 10 HP less.

Not sure what 169 HP at the wheels would convert to on an engine dyno...maybe 185?  Any ideas?

[neil68]

Here's a couple of the Dynojet runs at Concept 1:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=9UqSJdRngJI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqRAdj8-cYw

[neil68]

Update:  Made it up to Edmonton to run at Castrol Raceway last night.  Very sticky track, so I had trouble bogging down...2.025 seconds was my best 60'

However, I finally got over the 100 MPH trap speed with 101.46 MPH.  Now I just have to put my best 60' of 1.750 seconds together with some top-end shifting to finally get into the 12's.  Will probably change the camshaft this winter...

[Bruce]

Although it's fun to fantasize by marrying up your best short times with your best top end times, it doesn't work that way.  The reason you broke 100mph is because of your crappy 60' time.  I know it doesn't make sense, but it always holds true.  When you have a good 60' time, you are consuming up the length of the track while going slow, so you don't have the length to build mph.
Have a look at your old time slips.  In runs where you have a bad 60' time, your mph will usually be a couple mph higher than normal.

I think you should next work on lightening up that tank.  Are those original steel sprint stars?  Over the next winter, spend time removing weight.  There's plenty you can do.

[neil68]

Bruce,

That's an interesting point about 60' time vs. trap speed!  I dropped the slicks to 17 lb and with the Edmonton track so sticky (they prep it for the parachute pony cars), I was bogging and swerving at launch.

I'll be back at Race City in Calgary this week (where they don't prep the track so well), so we'll see if I can finally get that 12-second pass.

Yeah, "tank" is a good description for my Beetle...got it down to 1,750 lb + my 210 lb = slow 1/4-mile

I'll pull the seats to lose some weight and try 7-8 runs at various rpms...I'm having fun, so it's all good!

The Sprintstars are original '68 steelies...I've been looking for some genuine 4-bolt Centerlines for the track...

[Bruce]

All things being equal, you will ET better in Calgary, and mph better in Ed.
Centerlines are NOT light.  No performance advantage there.  ERCOs and other pie plate wheels are unmatched in weight.  Less than 1/3 what your steel wheels weigh.

[neil68]

Well, Calgary's race track has ceased operations as of today...with an uncertain future

So, I may not bother experimenting much more with other cams, or lightening the Beetle...maybe just the odd trip to Edmonton to race.

I'd still like to try out your track at Mission some day...just to see if there is a 12-second pass in this Beetle.

Thanks to everyone for all the driving tips, head porting, etc, this year!!  It was fun while it lasted

[neil68]

Bruce,

I raced in Edmonton last night with a couple changes:  increased tire pressure 2 lb and launch revs 500.

Got my quickest 1/4-mile so far:


ET: 13.156 sec
60': 1.784 sec
100.63 MPH

Some pics from this race...first pic is just after launch:





We been given a reprieve in Calgary, as they are going to start the street legal races again next weekend, with another group organizing it

[silas]

way to go neil...congrats on a great pass and 100mph!!!

[neil68]

All things being equal, you will ET better in Calgary, and mph better in Ed.
Centerlines are NOT light.  No performance advantage there.  ERCOs and other pie plate wheels are unmatched in weight.  Less than 1/3 what your steel wheels weigh.

Bruce,

What about these repro Centerlines at CIP?  Are they lighter?  Will they fit my short-axle four-bolt drum set-up?

http://www.cip1.ca/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=C32%2DCLP4

Thanks!

[neil68]

Ran a bunch of low-13's again last week in Calgary...this motor is certainly consistent.  I've come to the conclusion that the FK8 has done as much as it can, for a mild cam, as it seems to quit pulling at around 6,500 rpm.

So, does anyone have any cam recommendations to get me into the 12's? I know I need to lighten the Beetle as well.

Suggestions that I've received are: FK10, FK87 or Web 86C.  I would prefer to not have to notch the pistons, if possible, but still run a 10:1 CR.  Also, don't want to go too radical (eg. FK89/98) as it's still a street car.

Thanks

[jim martin]

i just quickly reviewed your thread .
let me share something i ,like many have learned.before you jump in with both feet.
when you start increasing the N/A output of your motor to even higher levels it no longer becomes a check under the hood once a month deal.
due to the fact you have now pushed components to or almost to the edge ,maintence /inspection/repairs becomes a must due before each use.why? because when parts are being pushed to limits you need to keep on top of things to be aware of any potential falure and catch it before its to late.and the bottom line is high strung N/A motors and drivelines require allot of attension and don't forget $$$ at times.as well don't forget about all the added support equipment needed to operate the motor and trans.
then like many we get sick of the now required additional $$$/maintance /repares etc and use the vehicles less because they are now a pain in the ass.
like many i've been there way to many times  and because of the above reasons and many more i have completely changed the way i build motors .
is it possible to have a real street/strip low 12 sec car with street performance and a reasonable maintance schedual .yes it can be done .
but it all starts with carefull selection of parts .
sorry don't take this as negative , i'm all for speed i just wanted to make sure you know what you are getting into .
if you are serious and want to increase your performance ,let me know and we can carry on in this thread or through e-mail or phone
jim

[neil68]

Good points Jim!

I should clarify, that I'm fine with doing the required maintenance for a hi-po engine.  While this Beetle is primarily a heavy street car, I don't rely on it for driving to work, etc, so I don't mind checking the bearings, valve train, etc.

The FK10 was suggested by another racer as a nice next step up from the FK8 without getting into the race cams.  I prefer to make one change at a time, then test how the combo responds...

[jim martin]

welcome to the world of high performance,
take a look at 2007 results ,you can see its not easy getting into the 12's with any car and especialy a heavy car.now try to get into the low 12's and it gets even harder.

TOP 15 N/A VEHICLES
# NAME ET MPH 60ft WEIGHT VEHICLE ENGINE LOCATION DATE
1 ALAN UYENO 11.923 108.82 1.510 1690lbs 65 BEETLE 2332cc BC 08/17/07
2  CHRIS TARASOFF  12.194 106.83 1.667 1200lbs 57 MANX  2276cc SASK 08/12/07
3 DUSTIN VANDERWOUDE  13.116 101.78 1.799 1980lbs 69 BEETLE  2276cc ALTA 05/12/07
4 FRED FALCAO  13.272 98.97 1.908 2000lbs 70 BEETLE  2332cc ALTA 05/25/07
5 GARY ECONOMY  13.279 101.27 1.808 1930lbs 67 BEETLE  2276cc BC 08/17/07
6 CHRIS CASWELL 13.464 98.04 1.784 1750lbs 61 BEETLE  1914cc BC 08/12/07
7 ROBERT SPOFFORTH  13.474 102.23 2.117 1900lbs 54 BEETLE  2276cc BC 08/17/07
8 JASON JOHANSON  13.677 100.61 1.954 1700lbs 63 BEETLE 2400cc T4  ALTA 08/24/07
9 NEIL SPEIRS  13.710 98.40 1.881 1975lbs 68 BEETLE  2017cc ALTA 08/03/07
10 BRIAN COOK  13.770 92.25 1.865 2000lbs 69 GHIA  2221cc BC 08/12/07
11 ROBERT WILSON  13.805 94.15 1.847 1900lbs 62 BEETLE  2276cc ONT 08/03/07
12 TIM HANCOCK 14.164 95.66 2.134 1850lbs 67 BEETLE  2276cc WASH 07/13/07
13  JOE LIES 14.238 92.27 1.990 1750lbs 66 BEETLE  1955cc WASH 07/07/07
14 ROB THOMAS 14.527 91.27 2.001 2100lbs 70 BAJA  2276cc WASH 07/07/07
15 BRENNAN SHEREMETO 14.759 91.10 2.205 1870LBS 63 BEETLE  2017cc BC 08/03/07

there is way more than just replacing a cam ,you need to consider valve springs and valve clearance as well as making sure your other componets are up to the higher rpm that will come with it.

why don't you start with a list of what your car has,i don't care about brand names just facts eg 84mm crank , 5.6" rods etc.then what your target E.t is and what you want to spend to get there.

[egspot]

welcome to the world of high performance,
take a look at 2007 results ,you can see its not easy getting into the 12's with any car and especialy a heavy car.now try to get into the low 12's and it gets even harder.

TOP 15 N/A VEHICLES
# NAME ET MPH 60ft WEIGHT VEHICLE ENGINE LOCATION DATE
1 ALAN UYENO 11.923 108.82 1.510 1690lbs 65 BEETLE 2332cc BC 08/17/07
2  CHRIS TARASOFF  12.194 106.83 1.667 1200lbs 57 MANX  2276cc SASK 08/12/07
3 DUSTIN VANDERWOUDE  13.116 101.78 1.799 1980lbs 69 BEETLE  2276cc ALTA 05/12/07
4 FRED FALCAO  13.272 98.97 1.908 2000lbs 70 BEETLE  2332cc ALTA 05/25/07
5 GARY ECONOMY  13.279 101.27 1.808 1930lbs 67 BEETLE  2276cc BC 08/17/07
6 CHRIS CASWELL 13.464 98.04 1.784 1750lbs 61 BEETLE  1914cc BC 08/12/07
7 ROBERT SPOFFORTH  13.474 102.23 2.117 1900lbs 54 BEETLE  2276cc BC 08/17/07
8 JASON JOHANSON  13.677 100.61 1.954 1700lbs 63 BEETLE 2400cc T4  ALTA 08/24/07
9 NEIL SPEIRS  13.710 98.40 1.881 1975lbs 68 BEETLE  2017cc ALTA 08/03/07
10 BRIAN COOK  13.770 92.25 1.865 2000lbs 69 GHIA  2221cc BC 08/12/07
11 ROBERT WILSON  13.805 94.15 1.847 1900lbs 62 BEETLE  2276cc ONT 08/03/07
12 TIM HANCOCK 14.164 95.66 2.134 1850lbs 67 BEETLE  2276cc WASH 07/13/07
13  JOE LIES 14.238 92.27 1.990 1750lbs 66 BEETLE  1955cc WASH 07/07/07
14 ROB THOMAS 14.527 91.27 2.001 2100lbs 70 BAJA  2276cc WASH 07/07/07
15 BRENNAN SHEREMETO 14.759 91.10 2.205 1870LBS 63 BEETLE  2017cc BC 08/03/07

there is way more than just replacing a cam ,you need to consider valve springs and valve clearance as well as making sure your other componets are up to the higher rpm that will come with it.

why don't you start with a list of what your car has,i don't care about brand names just facts eg 84mm crank , 5.6" rods etc.then what your target E.t is and what you want to spend to get there.

No sugar coating?

[neil68]

Hi Jim,

I'll send you a PM

Thanks,

Neil.

[neil68]

PM function didn't work, so here's my specs:

CB 044 oval-ports, now 44 x 37 with Darren's porting, 50 cc chambers
IDA's with 42 vents (also have 40's), JayCee enlarged float bowls & progression circuits for street driving, Geers stacks
84 mm forged 8-dowel crank
94 pistons in 90.5 spigots
5.5" H-beams
straight cuts
Bugpack lightweight race lifters
Manton pushrods
zero DH plus 0.060" copper gaskets
MSD distributor, 6AL, Blaster 2, 8.5 leads
26 mm pump with full-flow
Berg 3.5 qt. sump
Rancho Pro Comp 1.48/1.04
SAW short race axles
Berg traction bar
Mohr intermediate mount
HD VW rubber mounts
Bus snubbers with stock Z-bar
M&H DOT's 215/65 on 5.5" Sprintstars
2.5" dropped spindles
CE 90/10 race shocks
KEP Stage 2, Centerforce dual friction disc
Everything balanced to drag race specs
91 octane (3,300-3,600 ft Calgary & vicinity)

Have run Engle 120/1.25's (9.6:1 CR) and then Engle FK8/1.4's (10.5:1 CR)...heads should be good for FK10 or Web 86C, so I'm looking for anyone with similar combos and their results.  I'm aware of all the "expert opinions" in the Cal Look circles in Orange County, CA as we spend part of each summer down there, however, I'm looking for some Canadian input.

Thanks!

[neil68]

Thanks for the PMs everyone.  It looks like the Web 86C is the next test cam

[jim martin]

sorry i did not look in my inbox for awhile .
neil you don't have the gearing to run a 86c ,that cam makes top end /higher rpm power.when i ran that i was turning N/A 7500 rpm all gears and with Nitrous between 8500 -9000 rpm .
with your current stock 1 and 2   , ? on the ring with a not so low 3rd and 4th you will not get the motor into the rpm range needed for a 86c .you need gears not a cam .
gearing and cam work hand in hand , and need to be carfully selected.
 eg :my N/A gearing with a 3.88 ring was selected to pull a 86c or larger duration cam, 4.11/2.47/1.71/1.31.that gearing and cam was able to run mid 12's at 108 mph in a 1850 lb car but rpm was high but it was planned to turn over 7500 rpm at the finnish line .in your case you will never be able to keep the motor in the power band above 6500 + rpm .to run 105 mph with a 1.04 4th you will be turning 4700 rpm ,forget it.the cam will not help .
does this make sence ? you have the dyno results ,you need to calculate usable rpm range .upper and lower rpm window  and design your gearing around it . or if you want to leave your gear box alone and not split the case a better cost effective solution is to add nitrous ,with your gearing and present cam and a 50 shot will make huge torque ,you can easily drop a second as well as keep good street gearing .
if you need to understand more about gearing and cam relationship call me

[BlueManx]

  Gearing is huge when it comes to the quartermile! I blew my 1.04 4th and tried a 1.13 4th just because and my times where better and the car seemed to have more power in 4th gear as well, more in its RPM range.